Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart in The City, the BABLE podcast where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
[00:00:21] Tamlyn Shimizu: I am your host, Tamlin Shimizu and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
[00:00:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart in the City is brought to you by Babel Smart Cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the Babel platform at babel-smartcities eu.
[00:00:45] Tamlyn Shimizu: So welcome back to another episode of Smart in the City. And for this episode we're traveling back to the UK and I'm really thrilled to learn about the future, future transport ambitions and the projects happening on the ground. And so I'll just get right into it and introduce you to our guest today. His name is Mark Collins. He's the head of Future Transport for Transport for West Midlands and the director of its uk. Welcome, Mark.
[00:01:12] Mark Collins: Good morning.
[00:01:14] Tamlyn Shimizu: Good morning. Nice to have you. We've actually been trying to do this for a little while and so I'm glad I caught you now virtually, and we can have a nice little chat about your work. So I'm excited to get us started. I always have a little teaser question just to warm up, get us going.
And the teaser question we've selected for you today is if you could have one superpower to make your job for Transport for West Midlands and its UK easier, what would that superpower be? Maybe also not just easier, maybe like more impactful or however you want to say that.
[00:01:49] Mark Collins: Yeah, it's a really, a really good question.
[00:01:55] Tamlyn Shimizu: Wave the wand.
[00:01:57] Mark Collins: Yeah, indeed. I suppose a lot of our work, whether it is trying to do something new or whether it is fundamentally trying to make a difference, is a lot of our influence.
So I suppose if we had a superpower, it would be the ability to positively influence a lot of behaviors.
And I think that most of our work these days is in that space. So whether that is trying to be progressive or whether that is trying to encourage people to be sustainable, I would say having a great sphere of influence, positive influence, obviously would be a superpower worthwhile.
[00:02:42] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah. With great power comes great responsibility. So I think with the influencing, you have to be careful with that one. But also good selection.
I want to learn a little bit more about you now as a person. Who are you? What is your background? What led you into your role today?
[00:02:59] Mark Collins: So I, I suppose slightly, maybe different to a lot of people that work in the sustainable transport space. I started my career as a mechanical engineer, so that's what I studied at university.
From there I spent 11, 11 years working for Jaguar Land Rover in the UK, predominantly in that time, working in sort of future facing roles. So product development, early phase prototyping, research. So I've always had this ambition, this interest in the future, what's coming next, how to develop new technology, etc. And sort of towards my sort of time, end of the time within Jaguar Land Rover really started to look at what the future business models, services existed, what was necessary and to really make sort of significant progress in terms of our sustainability, etc. And that lended itself quite nicely then to working for Transport for West Midlands. And when I first started at Transport for West Midlands, the focus then was largely around a program called Future Transport Zone.
And that was a 22 million pound program that had lots of different aspects within that. Everything from looking at how we understand the sort of citizens, users of transport in the West Midlands, through to new technologies, through to new services, through to digital capability. So it was a really broad program of work.
Really interesting that lasted three or four years. There's still some components that are going on related to that program.
And then from there my role sort of matured into what it is today, which is quite varied. There's still elements looking at future systems, future services, et cetera. So like demand responsive technology, we put the scooters into the cities and then also we've got a large part of the team which is looking at future digital product.
So predominantly for the last few years that's been mobility as a service. The idea of like integrating lots of different modes together digitally to make that really more seamless for users of transport.
But equally, and I suppose one thing that isn't that common in the sort of the public sector domain is we have a team that looks at specifically the application of behavioral science.
So what we've realized by doing the work in future transport is that a large proportion of the sort of future of transport isn't anything to do with things with wheels, just about people.
The problem of future transport is really actually a people problem, not necessarily a technology or transport problem.
And it goes back to that point about influence.
A lot of where people sort of think future transported is flying cars or really fancy technology, there is a component to that, but it's really how we use the systems and the technology and infrastructure we have today in a more sustainable way. That's really what the future transport's about in my mind. And so Having that team looking at how we understand people, their requirements, solving real world pain points for people and applying that in a way that is obviously innovative and progressive, but actually meets the demands of every day.
That's why we've got this team looking at behavioural science in transport, because that's where I think a lot of progress can be made and where there's probably to date, not as much emphasis being placed.
[00:06:54] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really, really interesting background and works. Thank you so much for sharing.
Now with your kind of ITS UK HAC that on, can you also tell me a little bit more about your work there and what the impact of the organization is in the uk?
[00:07:07] Mark Collins: Yeah, so ITS UK the last few years has gone through a bit of a transformation really. So its so Intelligent Transport Systems fundamentally is what its stands for. And we operate as a bit of a trade association for the industry, so a voice of the industry to help lobby government to really try and set agendas in this space, try and support those businesses in a way of whether that be pushing agendas, finding use cases, really being an advocate for the development of intelligent transport in lots of different fields. It affects lots of different industries and lots of different lives. So having a voice is, is really important.
And it's worth saying that it's even more pressingly relevant now because in 2027 its World Congress, which is, I suppose the most significant event that happens in the industry, is going to Birmingham in 2027. So that's really acting as a catalyst in the UK to try and drive lots more interest in this field. And especially with the advent of things like AI, et cetera, the industry really needs to understand how it can utilize, take advantage of technologies such as AI to really sort of push agenda and make sustainable transport sort of work for more people. So it's a really interesting, exciting space at the moment. And Transport for Midlands are a effectively a member of that sort of trade association. So hence why I have a sort of dual role. One is working for the interests of transport for West Midlands, but also helping ICS UK be as relevant as it is today.
[00:09:01] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, interesting crossover. Also tying the industry and with that with sustainability obviously as a core focus of yours, looking into the future of transportation, looking at the strategies that you've already implemented or the things that you have already done. What do you think has been the most effective in kind of balancing environmental, social, economic goals within mobility projects? A big question.
[00:09:28] Mark Collins: That's a big question.
I suppose there's so many dimensions to this in terms of one of the things that we've done. If I look back to maybe see a future transport zone, one of the things we're really proud of is, as I say, that influence and emphasis on people. Technology and digital systems get a lot of the headlines. But actually the work that we're doing and the emphasis we're putting on user experience, behavioral change, behavioral understanding, that's where the real a lot of value is, I think.
And by sort of focusing on that, you can drive lots of different innovations that maybe previously weren't thought about accessible. A lot of transport is focused on the things that move and the digital systems that support it. But actually if you focus on the user requirements, they are far broader and therefore that is a sort of a legacy from the work that we're doing is really spilling over into the rest of the business and how we operate. And I think that's a really sort of key point of we need to have an equal emphasis on the people as well as the sort of the technologies and services that support them.
So I say that that's really helping to drive a better balance in the way that we sort of deliver the transport regionally.
And I think there's other things that we've done in this space. So we've introduced demand responsive technologies with microbility is significant. They're able to drive a lot of additional people to sustainable transport that maybe hadn't necessarily considered it before.
And I think this is all additive. Every little thing helps in this space and I think that's where we've got to consider it's no silver bullet. We've got to keep on working to add and add and iterate and understand and respond to user pain. Points.
[00:11:30] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Really good points. I love your human centric approach as well. I think it's a really important message to keep. Of course, many of my guests talk about that. Right. On having a human centric approach. But doing it in practice is much different, I guess than saying it also. Right. Because it's so easy to be caught in kind of day to day and kind of forget about the people behind it. So yeah, it's a really good reminder to put the people first always with transport systems. This is so deeply kind of entrenched in our norms and practices as society.
Can you share perhaps a time when you kind of challenge the norms to drive innovation or to put the people first or otherwise?
[00:12:18] Mark Collins: Yeah, I mean there's a. I suppose in FTZ was quite good at this. The future transport zone was set up really to be a provoker in some regards to challenging norms. And we did a lot of things. So take for example, our work with the Demand Responsive Transport.
It was a real challenge for our internal teams to consider doing something like this because similar schemes that had happened before had effectively had some financial problems. And the value proposition was really challenging. And I suppose we had the remit and the opportunity within the future transport zone funding to try something new. But ECOE wanted to try and look at it from the perspective of broadening out the value. So a lot of traditional transport have quite set views on how you assess value for money and how the business cases are built. And we really wanted the challenger status quo with that, about introducing new different fields, about how we quantify value. So again, looking at the human centerpiece, how do you quantify the value of someone being able to get to a job or somewhere else that they haven't necessarily been able to get to before? How do you assess the value of people having access to transport that maybe haven't had access to? How do you quantify the value of user experience for a holistic journey that maybe they wouldn't have been able to do elsewhere? And I think that's the angle that we went in with to really push, push the envelope and go, you know, we're going to try something and we've got the agency to let it run and we're going to really broaden our perspectives on how we assess value.
And that was a real challenge to the way that we've done business.
And it's led to some really interesting components, specifically with that service. So for example, we launched this service and concurrently with that service we also had what is called a ring and ride service, which traditionally is focused on those with lower mobility, more elderly.
And there was a lot of debate about whether we could mix a rather progressive service, which had a much younger demographic, with a more elderly service. And when we sort of made the decision to turn off the Ring a Ride service and put everyone onto this sort of co mingled service, there was an expectation that wouldn't work. But through the right levels of promotion, the right value pieces and understanding what the user requirements were across both those demographics, we actually made that work really effectively. And we managed to boost overall patronage from what it was previously on both surveys to a 30% increase combined. So we were able to sort of demonstrate by sort of looking at those wider value points and really focusing in on what the user needs, how they access the transport, etc. And solving some of their existing pain points for the previous Ring and Ride service, we could show that you could actually Gain a lot by thinking progressively in that space.
[00:15:25] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really great example. So thanks for sharing. Is there also a time maybe when you weren't so successful? I think it's always interesting to hear, you know, I don't like to call them failures or anything like that, but, you know, lessons learned, let's say. So.
[00:15:41] Mark Collins: Yeah, I suppose my mentality on this is fail fast because ultimately you learn a huge amount by not what to do as well.
When we launched the E Scooter scheme, bearing in mind E Scooters in the UK was probably the first new mode of transport for maybe 100 years and there was a lot of stuff we didn't know, a lot of things about how user behavior was going to manifest, a lot of things about how people were going to react to it, how non users really sort of didn't value the scheme, etc. And we had some real challenges in the first few days of the service around disquiet about how people were using them. And it meant that some services actually that we launched ended up getting postponed quite quickly. And that was really challenging because we'd underestimated how that adoption was going to run and how people were not necessarily understanding of the rules, how people were in places abusing it, how people were not necessarily doing what was best for the scheme and equally their sort of fellow citizen.
So we learned a huge amount and quite quickly about how these sort of schemes work and how equally to find the right balance.
I think that's a really key point because no one's going to university like something that you do in transport generally, and you have to find the right balance, which you say is in sort of the greater good for both achieving a wider improvement in mobility for an audience, but equally not undermining those that are vulnerable in the sort of user groups, maybe can't use them. So working really quite hard with site loss agencies, working hard with those with lower mobility to understand how the impact of those services was having on those groups of individuals.
Things like parking, where to park, how to park, finding people for not parking was really key. Where to ride, where to limit speeds. So there's a huge amount I say we learned and just finding a space where we could have an equilibrium between offering a service that was valuable but also not offering a service that meant that it disadvantaged too many people.
[00:18:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, thanks for sharing. Definitely a similar story that I've heard. Of course, many different cities and regions have struggled with micromobility integration over the last years. So yeah, lots of lessons learned. I think there as well from many different parties.
With your look at future transport, I'm really curious to know what emerging technologies or trends or things that you're seeing happen in the space will have the biggest impact on mobility in the next decade or longer.
[00:18:43] Mark Collins: Yeah, so it's, it's.
If I had a crystal ball and I knew the answer to that, I would, I would.
Maybe that's your job, right? Well, it's my job, yeah. So I suppose I would lump this into a couple of categories.
In the digital environment, I think there's really significant opportunities in a number of different ways. So integration of services together has been a key theme for the last few years. And mobility as a service, I definitely see the user value in a lot of that. There's a lot of complexity in things like ticketing and digital information and those sorts of things. Integrating that together into a single package makes a lot of sense. I think that's the trend that will continue.
What's interesting is if you look at a lot of our digital systems in the transport space, they require the user to learn our system.
So if you look at it from. They have to learn what tickets are necessary and what services. So there's an education piece almost that we're forcing users to look at it. I see a paradigm shift where you get the inverse. Our systems learn the user. And I think that flip is coming where actually whether there's a predictive component to that, whether it is an ability for our systems to effectively learn your behavior and such, that actually we can help define what your requirements are.
That's linked in with AI, I would suspect. And I think this is where it's going to be really challenging for the transport industry because we're largely still in a box of how do we integrate?
And the world is going to go to a place where how are you going to service me as an individual rather than me having to go to you to get service. So I think that's a digital revolution that is coming.
I think in the service environment and the physical environment, a lot of the infrastructure that we have is the infrastructure we'll have in 10 years time. We are not going to build our way out of the problems that we have.
So for us in the West Midlands, the biggest thing that is coming is going to be around changing the bus model. So the service model of the RAM bus, that's going to take up a significant amount of effort. I would say that isn't really going to change the services massively. I would say we might have a better distribution of services, but that's really not going to change it. There's different propulsion components in terms of electrification that will clearly influence our activity as well. But I don't see a massive seismic shift in the services that are available, apart from maybe micro ability, which I think is going to significantly influence the availability of that last mile sub two mile piece.
And then the other big thing for me is our ability to influence the decisions around remode, removing journeys, etc. That's really where we probably need to make the biggest leap.
And if you consider our local transport plan, which has got a forecast of where we need to be to hit carbon neutral by 2041, which is our regional target, to give you a sense of scale, how much the change we need, we need to reduce the number of vehicle miles by 2030, by over 36%. So that's like having Covid every single year.
So that's the scale of change that we would need to hit our target. So that's why this is beyond a services problem, it's beyond a digital problem. This is a real human problem that got fixed and that's really why you need all of those components working in harmony to make the change that you would need to see if you can hit those targets.
[00:22:48] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really, really interesting to hear your insights there and your future predictions and the plans for West Midlands. I'm wondering also, what are really the main challenges? I mean, you've touched on it, but what do you think is stopping you meeting that goal the most? Like, what tools might you be missing in your toolbox to. To get you to that goal?
[00:23:13] Mark Collins: I suppose it's a mixture of tools and skills.
So if we just go back to the digital one to start with, I think figuring out how to do the integration in the first place is quite difficult. You've got. You've got a rather disparate transport system whereby you've got different operators with different business cases with different shareholders. They're all vying for the same space. You've got, obviously, a space where not everyone is encouraged to get onto those sort of public transport vehicles. It's not convenient for a lot of people. So there's a lot of disconnect in just the digital environment to try and get some consistency.
That's a big challenge.
And then being able to have the, in some cases, bravery, the foresight to be able to sort of push the pace of that digital evolution quicker and quicker. We as local authorities are not necessarily the best place to do that, but equally, we're probably the ones that have got the greatest level of equity in that conversation in terms of we hold the target, but we don't necessarily hold all the tools to be able to sort of get there. So that's a real challenge. You've got a general public who fundamentally want to travel quite rightly, at their own convenience.
So people have. People want to live their lives in a flexible way, a convenient way, etc. And how do you intersect that decision about which transport mode to take, when actually there's a very strong and coherent argument for saying, well, it's really convenient for me and I need to be here, there and everywhere. My life is complicated.
So that is a fundamental challenge to the way we might want to help to influence sustainable behavior.
And that is linked to how we define our land use, how we build homes with drives, how we.
All of that is linked into that sort of conversation about how much we've got a facility to use public transport as well as we can encourage people to use it.
So it's a really thorny issue of some. Quite antiquated in some regards, transport services and sort of the views and attitudes of we just want to carry on doing what we're doing because we know how to do that and we want to continue doing that against the backdrop of individuals really just wanting to live their lives in the most convenient way for them.
And if you also imagine that, I think it's 89, 90% of all decisions that any individual takes are unconscious.
So effectively you're battling to break out, get people to break out that unconscious thought, which is, my car is on the drive, which is really convenient for me to jump in that car. I'm not actually even thinking about it, I'm just doing. And breaking that cycle is incredibly difficult.
And there's lots of sort of theories around.
Do you try and speak to people that have moved house, had a baby, got a new job? Because at those moments of change, actually you've got more opportunity to influence in those situations. So there's obviously that logic. So it's using all those tools to try and set new patterns of behavior and try and influence positively where you can.
[00:26:53] Tamlyn Shimizu: Lots of complex challenges. How is your outlook on the future? Do you stay optimistic still?
[00:27:03] Mark Collins: Yes, I suppose my sort of view on this is there's always 1% more that we can achieve whichever problem we look at. So it's that marginal gains approach where my team's all about trying to create some sort of positive momentum, positive change. And as much as we can demonstrate that, and hopefully that inspires somebody else to make some positive Change, positive influence. And I think that's. That's really the only way that we can look at it. We can't change the world on our own.
What we can do is keep on seeking to make positive improvement and hopefully, as a collective, we can, we can get further and further along. But the challenge is the pace of change required and the pace of change achieved is only getting bigger in my mind. So I think that's really. The bit is hard, but if we stop, actually all we're going to do is make that void even bigger. So that's the personal challenge and I suppose the sort of legacy of positive improvement is the bit that drives a lot of the team.
[00:28:17] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, yeah, good points. That's all the questions I have for you, really, in the main interview part, but I'm wondering if there's anything I like to give the open floor in case there's anything that you really want to talk about that you think is really important for the listeners to know that. I didn't get the chance to ask you.
[00:28:37] Mark Collins: I suppose, I mean, it depends in some regards whether these are people interested in transport or transport professionals, et cetera.
[00:28:45] Tamlyn Shimizu: They've listened this far, so there we go.
[00:28:49] Mark Collins: Yeah. Hopefully my faucet tones haven't turned them off too much. But I suppose a few things. One is, if you look at some of the most successful businesses in the entire world, they have a really keen and unforgiving focus around user experience, customer experience, user design, etc.
What I notice in the transport space is that we don't share that same philosophy, which is really interesting. Consider service industry and I think there's a lot to be learned from following some of the examples that, you know, whether it be retail, E commerce or whatever, we've got a long way to go. But actually that means there's a massive opportunity in our space that we could, we could improve the value of our offer significantly if we look at some of the practices that are employed elsewhere in those other industries and that might go some way to sort of narrow the gap that I was talking about before.
So that's another key piece that requires a different skill set in places and a different approach to where we've. Where the sort of convention of norm is. A lot of people that are interested in being in our industry are interested in the things with wheels, generally speaking, generalization.
We should be more interested in the individuals that are moving inside the thing with wheels. And I think if we did that, actually that would help really progress our ability to make a difference and make a Lot of our services more attractive to users. So I suppose that's one of the key messages.
[00:30:32] Tamlyn Shimizu: I love that. Yeah. You need to talk to our UX designer and stuff and get that kind of mentality of way of thinking and really looking at the user design. Also marketing. Right. I always thought that public transport has done a horrible job at marketing in a lot of cases. Right. For example.
[00:30:59] Mark Collins: Yeah, I would agree. I think we, I said this to my colleagues yesterday, actually. We. We have a language in transport that no one else understands.
[00:31:09] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah.
[00:31:11] Mark Collins: Whether that is the ticketing language that we use, whether that is just the general communication, whether that's the way that we communicate the value of the service, there's such a disconnect because that isn't the language that everyone else in the world speaks. We think everyone has that same knowledge about transport and interest and they just don't. And we don't ask ourselves a question of why should people care often enough.
So if every time that we do something we ask the question of why should people care? What's in it for them? It might start to start to tease out this piece around how we can improve that. For those that really just want to get from A to B, they've got screaming children, etc. Etc. Put yourself in that scenario and say, how is your offering going to help them?
There's so much value to be gained from doing that.
[00:32:03] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah. Like, I just, just to also mention a personal antidote here, I take the, the train. I live in Germany. I take the train to, to work as well. And one of my biggest benefits in doing that versus driving is that I feel like I have time back then. Like I can sit on the train and I can, you know, reply to some emails or read or do something else besides like driving actively a car or something along those lines. And I, I feel like, heard that actually marketed as a benefit, for example, of like, hey, this gives you time back. Actually, it's actually more convenient if you're a busy person and you, you know, you need to just get some time on your commute to respond to some emails. You know, for example.
[00:32:50] Mark Collins: I completely agree. I think this is, this is where we, we aren't speaking the language of the user.
And I think there's also, we know with certain elements of psychology, for example, if you own a car, there's a massive sunk cost fallacy involved in car ownership. It costs you a lot of money to have a car sitting there for, I think about 96% of the time doing nothing. So you're not taking Any value out of that.
And subconsciously we write that off versus the cost of maybe paying more for a specific journey on the train. But actually to your point, how valuable is your time?
[00:33:25] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah.
[00:33:26] Mark Collins: So if you measure yourself in value of time, I think that sort of cost ratio benefit starts to really change, if you really consider that. But that whole narrative is not discussed in the sort of the general sense of transport. And I think that's there are so many opportunities like that you could leverage.
And that's why I think this whole piece is well underserved by not focusing on the users as much as we should do in transport generally.
[00:33:56] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Good point. Okay, well, really amazing to talk to you and get all of those insights. I have another question for you because now we've moved on to our segment of the show and the segment that we've selected for you today is called Shout Out.
Shout out.
Mention a person, an organization or a.
[00:34:20] Tamlyn Shimizu: City you think deserves more recognition. Recognition in the field.
[00:34:26] Tamlyn Shimizu: It's when you get to mention a person, an organization, a city, anybody or anything that you think deserves more recognition in the field.
[00:34:39] Mark Collins: Wow, you put me on the spot now. Okay, you can, you can pick a.
[00:34:43] Tamlyn Shimizu: Couple if you need. But.
[00:34:48] Mark Collins: Yeah, I think, I suppose maybe one or two places where I see sort of pockets and areas of real sort of wanting to drive progress I think is a key piece. So a couple of my team, one of them, a team, has actually sort of moved on recently. So Prabhs Johal, she was a real catalyst for helping push this whole piece around behavioral science in transport. And I think without her we wouldn't have necessarily quite so much momentum around that. She's obviously been with us on this journey around for each transport zone, but equally helping to really recognise that piece around the gaps that exist within that space and also the gaps that exist within UK policy around how we do behavioural change in transports. It's not a new topic, but it is one of those whereby understanding and recognizing the deficiency helps shine a light on how you could do better.
So I think I'd definitely sort of call her out as someone to help really sort of push that agenda.
I think it's also, I mean, just trying to. Just trying to think if there's anybody else I would shout out. I mean equally, there's another. Other areas of my team that. So James Bullen and my team is very much focused on this whole product delivery, making sure that we're delivering a sort of universal experience to our product design. So really sort of key approach to getting the Right. Outcomes for users. I think that's a really important piece that we've been pushing again as an agenda internally.
And I think also there's a, there's a component to really wanting to care and really being invested in getting better outcomes.
So there's a. So Sarah Jones, who is our head of customer experience internally, she, more than many people I've ever met within this industry, really cares about getting outcomes for users. So very passionate about it. And we'll keep on pushing to make sure we get real value. So there are, I take a lot of inspiration from those people.
[00:37:08] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good.
[00:37:09] Mark Collins: They help carry on motivating me to keep on doing better.
[00:37:14] Tamlyn Shimizu: Amazing words. And now is the last question that I have for you. And that is a question we ask every single guest that comes on to the show and it's to you. What is a smart city?
[00:37:30] Mark Collins: Where's a smart city?
I suppose a smart city is one that allows people to be themselves. Allows people to get.
Yeah. So being selves get value out of the infrastructure that exists. That means that they can live their lives in the way they want to live their lives, but equally in a way that is long term sustainable.
So that they are, they feel they can get fulfillment and they can do the things they want to do, but they're not doing that in a way that is fundamentally undermining the ability of others to do it for their generation and next. And I think there's a lot said about the sort of the human race in its ability to self sustain.
We're probably the only species on this planet that doesn't really look after its own next generation, its own survival. Which is a bizarre construct really.
My efforts and motivations are encouraged by and inspired by making sure that I leave something for my kids and that we don't leave a bigger mess.
And so smart city is one that helps people to do that, I think.
[00:38:52] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really, really interesting way of putting it. I really like the way that you phrase that. So thank you so much for all of your insights. It was really interesting talking to you and understanding how you think about things and how you're working on all the different projects and initiatives that you're undertaking in West Midland. So thank you so much, Mark.
[00:39:12] Mark Collins: Thank you.
[00:39:14] Tamlyn Shimizu: And thank you of course to all of our listeners. Don't forget you can always create a free account on babel-smartcities eu. Find out more about projects, solutions, implementations and more. Thank you very much.
Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
