Episode Transcript
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:06 Welcome to Smart in the city - The BABLE podcast, where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations. I'm your host, Tamlyn Shimizu. And I hope that you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to drive the change for a better urban life. Smart in the city is brought to you by BABLE Smart Cities, we enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at bable-smartcities.edu. So, at BABLE, as you know, probably, one of our goals is to increase the livability of a city. And that means that the citizens living inside the place have obviously a high level of happiness in the city. But yeah, the question really is who is looking and measuring happiness? How do we do that? And why should governments and other stakeholders care? And also like what makes people truly happy? So this is a really interesting topic. And I'm really excited to introduce you to our guests today, who will be your experts on the topic matter. So first up, we have Catarina Lachmund. She's the senior analyst at the Happiness Research Institute. Welcome to the show, Caterina.
Catarina Lachmund 00:01:34 Thank you for having me.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:36 Our pleasure. And of course, her colleague is also here providing a mixed perspective as well on it. Her name is Camilla. Michalski? Sorry, I always I butchered the names, but she's the data analyst. Welcome to the show.
Camilla Michalski 00:01:52 Thank you. You got my name right, so
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:53 All good, <laugh>. Perfect. Second time's the, the charm. So, um, really excited to have you all here. Yeah. Happiness. So, let's start off, um, with a little teaser question as we like to do in this podcast. Um, and I did ask you if you, uh, have a favorite, well, funny or otherwise quote about happiness, um, that you wanted to share with us today.
Catarina Lachmund 00:02:18 I would actually quote our founder, Meik Wiking, who always says happiness doesn't decrease when shared. So it's not cake. And I think it's quite simple. But also like, very easy to understand the core point of happiness.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:37 That's, that's a really good point, too. There's not many things that when you share them, they don't decrease them. So that's, that's a very nice one. Great. So that being said, I want to know a bit more about yourselves, and really setting the stage for who are you? How has your journey led to be at the happiness research institute? How do roles differ? So maybe Catarina you can start?
Catarina Lachmund 00:03:04 Yeah, sure. So my name is Ina, or Catarina, and I joined the Institute in 2020, when they were looking for someone with experience in managing multiple stakeholders and client communication, project management, and this is what I did, actually my entire career. And then this is kind of how I started. And then during the time, I also tried to break down the complex information and analyzes from from the data analyst. So people have an or so that everyone or like it's easier to understand because like numbers can even though they're super clear, it can be hard to understand.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:53 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. dissecting the numbers very important job. And Camilla. What, what do you do? And what's your story?
Camilla Michalski 00:04:03 Yeah, so I'm a data analyst here. I'm also the newest addition to the team. So I actually just joined the happiness research institute. This past summer, I moved from Toronto to Copenhagen. But my acquaintance or my dance with happiness research actually began quite a few years back. So I have an epidemiology degree and I was doing epidemiological research back in Canada, but it wasn't around infectious disease. I was looking a lot at mental health, mental health, population statistics, and eventually how to measure the well being of populations. So I started looking into happiness metrics, things like community belonging, coming up with indicators of community wellbeing. And that's how I came across the work been done here at the happiness research institute. We had some overlapping collaborators became familiar with their work with their indicators and they really liked what they did. So when we got in touch and they had an opening I flew over and made a big move
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:02 <laugh> to Copenhagen, one of the best cities, <laugh> my personal favorite. So <laugh>. Good. Good move. Good move. Not that Toronto is also not a nice city don't want to offend any. How do you call people from Toronto? Torontonians?
Camilla Michalski 00:05:18 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I, I think they would all agree in terms of, uh, happiness research between the two cities, Copenhagen is where you wanna be
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:27 <laugh>, well, Nordic cities in general, right. Rank always very high up on happiness. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So interested to, to dig into more of the happiness stuff. So this topic is so intriguing to me. So, um, I I love that we're talking about it. Um, so since a lot of our listeners are coming from more on the municipality side of things, I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to them on like, why should municipalities care about happiness and like, how does this fit in? Like, they're very busy doing projects, et cetera. Like how does this all fit in with their work?
Catarina Lachmund 00:06:01 I think like, I mean, if we think about municipalities, then we also think about elected elected representatives from the people. So very simplified, it's their job to take care of the people. And it's their job to make people or the citizens happier, or to guarantee good quality of life, this is why they have been elected for so even if you might look at it from different angles. That is more or less the number one promise, let people vote for you, because they believe that you will improve their life. So this is what like very, maybe confrontive answer on why municipalities should care.
Camilla Michalski 00:06:48 Yeah, I have a bit of an anecdote that comes to mind. And so here at the happiness research institute, you know, organizes a course that us and our colleagues teach together, and it's a happiness course for university students. And one lecture comes to mind where a colleague, he starts with a definition of what the ultimate goal of government is. And the process of the lecture is that the students slowly take apart different pieces of the definition. So the definition he starts with is that the ultimate goal of government is to ensure complete happiness for all people, and then word by word, we start to break it down. So what does ultimate goal mean? Is a government in a position to ensure something for people is all people enough? Do we also need to think about the environment. So we take these things piece by piece, and they reconstruct the definition and it usually ends up to be somewhere around like, a core goal of government is to reduce suffering and enable the pursuit of happiness for all people and for future generations. So what we've noticed is that different parts of this definition tend to change. But there always remains this, like an agreement that there is a responsibility of government to enable people to pursue happy lives. And we don't see that agreement just in this university course. It's just a story that comes to mind. But we see a lot of talk among politicians, too. So there's happiness councils in New Zealand and the UK that adopt this framework. And so I think our advice would be that, if you want to know how to improve the well being of citizens, it's important to ask them themselves, how happy they are living in the society that you're providing them,
Catarina Lachmund 00:08:26 Uh, ultimately, and that is also one of the, the big, um, rules and happiness, uh, measurement. Like you are the only one who's able to say if you are happy or not. Like I cannot just say like, oof, I think Camilla is five happy. Like Camilla is the only person who can say how happy she is.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:08:46 Yeah. Yeah. That kind of leads into my next question. I wanted to ask about if happiness can actually be accurately measured or not, because I'm okay. So if each person can say, Okay, I'm happy, or I'm not happy, how do you actually scale that? How do you get to accurate data from that? And how do we know if it's reliable enough data to make big decisions from it?
Camilla Michalski 00:09:09 Definitely, yeah.
Catarina Lachmund 00:09:11 Yeah. So if we talk about happiness, then we actually talk about it as an umbrella term. And we split it up in like three dimensions, there's the effect of happiness, which is, how have you How did you feel yesterday? Like, have you been stressed? Have you been laughed at you feel anxious and so on, like, this is really like short term measured. And then we have the evaluative dimension where people rate the satisfaction on their life in general, or as a whole. And then there's the IDI monic dimension, which is kind of if you wake up in the morning, is there something you look forward to during the day like Do you have a meaning in life?
Camilla Michalski 00:09:52 And so I think people's questions about measuring happiness a lot of the time, maybe people are thinking more about happiness this day to day effect of emotion that changes and we know that is quite variable Little things can happen in your day and asking people how emotionally happy they are can be pretty variable. But the really like widely accepted metric, the one that we used is life satisfaction. And it's an overall capture of someone's well being. So it speaks to that evaluative dimension of happiness that ina mentioned. And there's a few different ways to measure life satisfaction. So there's a number of validated scales, some ask questions specifically about your satisfaction with different domains in life. Some are a series of 10 questions, the ones that the one that we like the most, it's a single item question. And it just asks people, how satisfied overall on are you with your life as a whole these days, and you give us a number from zero being very dissatisfied to 10 being the most satisfied. And this measure, there is quite a lot of research on its validity, and reliability. So we know it's quite good at capturing that long term happiness, and it's not so affected or porous to just your daily mood swings. So there's studies done where we ask this question to people in short timeframes, and it stays pretty stable. There are some issues that we need to consider. So we also know that when you ask certain questions before this, let's say someone is unhealthy. And in a survey, were asking about their health before this, we know that that tends to lower the score. So when people are developing surveys or kind of know about these metrics, there's a lot of thought put into where we ask them how we ask them. And when we analyze them in order to really optimize that reliability.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:39 Really interesting. I actually had a random question that came into my mind while you were speaking as well. And I'm not sure if you have accurate data on it or anything like that. But it's just interesting for me, we can cut it out if it's not interesting. But it's related to our field of like smart cities, like often uses a lot of technologies. I'm just wondering if you've come across any any research or you've done any research on how technology affects the happiness of people.
Catarina Lachmund 00:12:08 We've been thinking about it, or like discussing it quiet, back and forth, because we do see technology as an Abler to happiness, but also in a way as a barrier to happiness. So if we, if we look at wellbeing data, we do see a global decrease. And it is not clear yet to which extent this can be traced back to technology. And there's like this ongoing debate on the negative effects of social media to adolescent well being. And there is not yet a black or white answer to that. But yet, we know that the biggest impact on on well being is social contacts, and that they decrease. This is not because of technology. So what we kind of tried, the point that I'm trying to make over here is technology can help if it's used and designed correctly. So if you think about I mean, the beginning of social media where like literally was apps to connect people and not to shout out your opinion, it could have have a way more positive impact on wellbeing. And then there's this entire, like technology that also can help. Do you want to say that? I mean,
Camilla Michalski 00:13:40 Yeah. No, I think that's exactly the point is that it's maybe not so much of a clear cut answer of whether technology, like what the connection is to happiness, there's applications of technology where it can be detrimental. Again, I mentioned, we see some studies where it shows constantly being plugged in can really stress you well can lead to burnout that has, you know, negative effects on our happiness. But there's also applications like in you know, smart city design of technologies where they can be used to actually enhance how municipalities deliver services to their citizens. So where it can improve health care, delivery, or improve public transportation, these kinds of factors that we know those factors can improve happiness of people. So we're smart city technology can do that. Definitely, there's a huge opportunity to improve the happiness of people. I do think like one lens that we would bring to it as happiness researchers is that it's really important to like when deciding on the integration or implementation of certain technologies in cities to always approach it with a kind of human centered lens or human centered approach where we're asking, who does the technology include, who does it exclude? And is this group in like, is the group that this technology is helping a group that we want to prioritize right out, are they, the people that should get the most benefit right now? So I think just keeping those questions in mind when we're talking about the benefits of technologies is, what were the were the happiness researchers would lead to?
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:12 Yeah, I love that approach to we're big about the human centric approach with what we do at bobble as well. So I love that you mentioned that. And does it? Does the data around this show any kind of trends in smart cities at all? Like, what are you seeing as time progresses?
Catarina Lachmund 00:15:31 Well, I mean, as I mentioned before, what we do see as the decline and well being and we do see a decline on social connection, I would say that's actually like in the responsibility or in the field of responsibility of urban planners or city planners to make sure they create or offer enough free public spaces to meet. So I mean, obviously, the more parks you have in a city, the easier you can meet with people outside. And then if you are outside, the more likely, if you are outside, there is a high chance that you interact with people you haven't been interacting before, which is not happening within your own flat or within your own house. So the more open and accessible free spaces we have, in a way, the better the happier the city, because the higher chance of social interaction and thus the lower chance of isolation, there is.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:16:38 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Good. Um, Camila, do you have anything to add to that? Like, do you see Do you see anything happening in cities that you think is actually like, a negative trend or like something that we should watch out for anything like that?
Camilla Michalski 00:16:57 Um, I would say generally, kind of, to the answer we've already given is like, just that exclusionary piece, I think, sometimes smart city, and there's like a bit of a luster around technologies. And there can be a focus on wanting to integrate technologies or certain interventions that do have benefits. But when we're assessed, maybe they just benefit people that are already quite high up on that happiness scale. And we want to make sure that we're like, we advocate that, you know, when we're looking at different interventions, there shouldn't be a little bit of a preference given to people that are lower on that scale, and bring them up to the population mean, and that overall makes for a happier city, a happier society is when the majority of people are in and around the same place, and we're not exacerbating any kind of inequality.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:17:45 Yeah, very interesting. And when we were speaking, before you were you were talking about this kind of currency of happiness. Can one of you or both of you elaborate on this?
Camilla Michalski 00:17:58 Sure, yeah, I'll give it a stab. But guarantee of happiness. Essentially, we talk about it as a common currency language that we can give people and decision makers to talk about how valuable certain programs or interventions are. So this is really helpful in decision making. Decision makers, especially like in municipalities, they may face budgetary decisions where they're choosing between putting money towards a program that's aimed at one gap in the city versus another. And to help make these calls. There's different kinds of analyses that can be done. So people can look to cost effectiveness analysis, or returns on investment. And traditionally, those types of analyses are really good at capturing the economic value of a certain program or intervention. But they're not so good. Or they even completely miss capturing the social value of an intervention. So for example, for looking at investing in a program that maybe improves employment rates in a city municipal decision makers, they can see how much money goes into this program, how much money people can make from this program and how their income increases. But we don't really have a number that can quantify the social value that's also associated with gaining a job for those people. So what about the value that comes with increasing their social contacts through their job or having an increased sense of purpose or confidence? It's hard to put numbers to that. And when we can't put numbers to that, or when we're making budgetary decisions, and those kinds of values aren't on paper, it means that there's very limited effect of actually being able to show how good something is when it's not tied to any kind of monetary or economic impact. And so that's where we come in with this currency of happiness. We quantify and we give a number of value to different social benefits. And so one metric we work with or that we developed, it's called the well being adjusted life. here, and it's based on that life satisfaction measure that I that I mentioned, it essentially tells us so it's a well being adjusted life here. And one of those means that you have lived one full year, and full happiness. And so we can do studies and analysis where we see how certain conditions can change how your life satisfaction is. And we can say something, for example, like adding a school lunch program here that affects 500. Students can give us X number of Wally's and, and while these are the well, well being adjusted life years, and by doing that with multiple different programs or interventions, it can be really helpful for decision makers to say, you know, putting this much money here, we can actually derive this much happiness or this much wellbeing for this many people.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:20:46 I love the quantifying happiness because, you know, people to get buy in a lot of times in cities, you have to give them these these numbers, you have to really quantify it, it's impossible to go and say, Hey, from get management buy in, right? And say, hey, this, this will make our citizens happy. And they'll say how by how much? What will what will be the actual increase? So I love that. Yeah. So yeah, because our focus is on cities, I do want to ask a little bit more about how you work directly with cities and what you have learned, like working with them.
Catarina Lachmund 00:21:27 So in general, we would kind of follow a scheme. That being said, obviously, each municipality is an individual case, but the scheme is comparable. So we would first obviously map the stakeholders and also meet them. Because there will be different needs, and different representatives have different needs and agendas and goals for the municipality. So I think that is where with all the technology, this is where the human part comes in. And also where you have to ensure a good starting point. Because at the end, this is like a big project, and we want you to be aligned, and how do you say like, going in the same direction. So we would then in co operation and conversation with the stakeholders, figure out individual challenges of the municipality. So usually the fields are comparable. So we always talk about the community, we will talk about housing, we will look at transport and education, labor chances and so on. But then there's still obviously, as I said, each municipality is different. So you can't compare University City with suburb. So I mean, they they have different needs, they have different challenges. So the first part is actually to listen and research and understand a lot. And then we will design a custom made survey. And as Camilla said, like just the the amount of thinking that needs to go in real world survey that is like not to underestimate. And then we will actually make sure that we get enough answers from the different groups within the municipality. So again, like while technology can be like very helpful, we still have to make sure that people with no access to the internet, and yes, it's 2023. But there's so people who don't like the internet, or who just don't have access, that we don't exclude them. So this is super important because the main goal or like one of the main goals is that we actually listen to the quiet majority instead of the loud minority. So if you just have like townhall meetings, there will usually be the same people showing up and they're showing up since 20 years. And since 20 years, they have something to tell you. So it's really important to really get a good sample size to also understand the specific needs for that municipality. And then we will analyze the data or like Kamala will analyze. And then we, she or like the team of data analysts can identify the topics with the biggest impact on wellbeing make this as again, where the well being currency comes in. And then we consult with decision makers on priority setting which again, is evidence based or based on the numbers. And then we, together with the decision makers, we will find potential interventions and then after a certain amount of time, we would actually always advocate to redo the survey to measure the impact or to also see if the priority has shifted.
Yeah, really interesting. And how does that differ with the work you also do with private sector?
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:25:10 <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting. And how does that differ with the work you also do with private sector?
Catarina Lachmund 00:25:23 Actually pretty much comparable, but in a way more focused way. So it would still be having the conversations first, identifying the priorities, or where the private sector, let's say, like, a big employer, where they think they have the biggest room for improvement, so that would be definitely part of the salary. But then there's also like different fields where we know already, by the research we have done in the past, that this is usually like a very big point that leads to work, unhappiness, or that affects the happiness at work quite a lot.
Camilla Michalski 00:26:13 I think it's similarly good in terms of how we work with cities, one of the applications of our private sector, as you know, is saying is, is in the workplace. So it's almost like you can picture an employer or workplace as a mini city. And similarly to that whole process, you know, just described, we identify what what specific context considerations we need to include, and we'll survey and identify those gaps again. And then another application that we work with, as well as portfolio analysis for impact investing as well. So there's some interest in our work to show how different investments can can actually increase the well being of people, when some companies want to show how they're doing good, or how the companies that they're investing in are doing good, or they're choosing between companies to invest in, they will ask us to do a bit of a wellbeing analysis and show them what are the potential outcomes or benefits to be gained there.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:09 Reallyinteresting work. And now I just want to get to the end of all of this and see, is there anything I missed? Like? Do you think that there's any other open points that we didn't touch on today that you really think is really crucial for our listeners to know?
Catarina Lachmund 00:27:29 So I think I mean, because you asked us how, how we work with both municipalities, but also with private organizations, I think it's very important also to be aware that quite often it can't be looked at individually. Like I mean, if there is a municipality, and there's like two or three really big employers within that municipality, then they should be included, and like sit on one table together with the municipality. And this is not about like, having too much of an influence into politics. But I think, like there was an awareness already before the pandemic, but it's now really accelerated, that also, like private companies have a responsibility for the work or the well being of their employees and off teams. So if you suffer in your private life, you will not be happy and thriving. The moment you're kind of enter your workplace. So if you as a private company have the opportunity, or the financial power to, for example, offer kindergarten, then please go ahead because there's, like everyone in the municipality with kids will be very grateful for that. And that, again, also makes it way more attractive for talents to move to the municipality, and to kind of do your part in working against a shortage of specified workers.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:09 I love this perspective, because at BABLE we really work in this this place between public private sector trying to get more cooperation going between the two. So love that perspective. I actually just had a quick follow up question on that as well. You were saying like if people aren't happy, like in the workplace, etcetera. have you actually seen like, what what determines someone's happiness more like their work, or their outside of work life? Do you know that <laugh>?
Camilla Michalski 00:29:40 Yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough and nuanced question. I think it really depends on also like, what your work is and what those conditions are. Different cultures also have different standards for work life balance. The general macro trend, I will say is that the happiest societies are the ones that have the best working conditions and To the best balance, meaning that the pendulum pendulum doesn't really swing, you know, towards 12 hour work days. But you know what happiest when work is a part of our life and not our life and doesn't dictate our life.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:30:13 Yeah, yeah. Good. I know it was a bit of a nuanced question, I was just very curious, <laugh>. Um, good. Um, with that being said, um, that wraps up kind of our main interview part. Thank you so much. Um, and now we move into a, a bit of a segment. We always do these fun segments and I have selected one that we actually haven't done in a while, um, for you all. And it's called Hot Take of the Day, we want to hear an opinion of yours that may be slightly controversial or debated. Do you have something in mind?
Camilla Michalski 00:30:56 I do, and I'm really happy you just asked this whole does work or life contribute more to happiness, cuz the hot take relates a little bit to this, which contributes to our question. Um, generally like this whole nature versus nurture when it comes to our wellbeing, our health and happiness. Um, and so a punchy line that I always like to share when people ask, you know, like, what's a big learning from your work? Uh, it's that our zip codes where we live are better predictors of our wellbeing than our genetic codes. So again, a little bit of nuance here. The like relative influence depends on what kind of disease you're looking at, but just in general, I think the hot take is that this really holds true just how much our social physical environments impact our lives, our wellbeing, our health, which is why municipal good municipal planning matters so much. It has such an impact. And I think just how much our zip codes in this case, just how much our loving environment contributes to our wellbeing is understated a lot. And, uh, yeah, I wish there was a little bit more weight given there by, by people and by the decision makers.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:31:58 So nurture over nature in this case.
Camilla Michalski 00:32:01 Yeah, that's my side. That's the side I'm taking.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:04 All right, perfect. Do you agree, uh, Catarina <laugh>?
Catarina Lachmund 00:32:09 Uh, yes. Um, so when, or I was aware, um, about the life expectancy difference in Mau, which is where I'm, uh, living. So I'm commuting over to Copenhagen and I know that there is like a difference in life expectancy of eight years, uh, just depending on it. And I mean, it's a tiny city. It might be Sweden's third biggest city, but it's still a tiny city. Um, and I think eight years, um, that was super shocking to me. And now, now, and Cam was like, hold on. <laugh>,
Camilla Michalski 00:32:41 Right? I'm glad you got this. I forgot to mention the big, uh, the big reporter, the big stat that I always share with this, it came out from a city in Canada, Hamilton, it was called the Code Red report. And they found that, uh, within a five kilometer difference between neighborhoods in the same city, uh, one neighborhood had a life expectancy of 86 years, uh, five kilometers down, same city. The life expectancy was 65 years. So we're talking a a whole generation 21 year difference. I, and I always bring that up to just really highlight like, people understand this whole nature nurture debate, but something like that really puts it in your face, like just how important, uh, these kind of living conditions are for our holl and, and our potential to live good lives.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:33:24 Oh my gosh, I'm shocked. I don't wanna cuss on the, on the podcast, but I'm shocked. So, um, yeah, thanks, thanks for bringing that up. Um, really, really interesting stuff. So, um, now unfortunately for me, probably fortunately from your side, you can breathe a little bit, but, um, unfortunately for me, we get to the last question. Um, and that is a question we ask every single guest. And it's so interesting to see that, hear the different perspectives. Um, and the question is to you, what is a smart city?
Catarina Lachman 00:33:55 I think for me, a smart city is a city where everyone is happy. So the kids are happy, the pensioners are happy, the newly arrived are happy, and that where the city enables and welcomes people to connect with each other outside their bubble and eventually like their, their neighborhoods slash their socioeconomic, uh, statuses. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that for me is a happy city.
Camilla Michalski 00:34:25 Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. I think the, when I think smart, I think also that's a city that maybe removed barriers or, uh, made it very easy for, to give voice to residents so that they can actually dictate, uh, you know, what kind of decisions are made in their cities to improve their lives. So I think a smart city is, um, an engaged city and a city that, that listens to people and, um, has, uh, different amenities set up so that those voices can be heard.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:34:57 Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely agree. So with that, I have to say that, um, it was really a pleasure to have you both on. Um, I think it's a topic that we need to always have in our mind. Whenever we're looking at any, any challenge in a city, we always need to be thinking about who is this benefiting? How can we increase the happiness and wellbeing of people? And it, and, and ultimate that's the ultimate goal. So thank you so much for shedding so much knowledge and light on this topic. Uh, it's been a pleasure to speak to you. Um, so, uh, any last words?
Camilla Michalski 00:35:34 I don't think think so. No. Just thank you so much for having us. It's also been a pleasure on our end.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:35:38 Yeah, thank you so much. And, uh, thanks to all of our listeners of course, as well. So don't forget, you can always create a free account at bable-smartcities.eu. You can find out more about different projects, solutions, implementations, all kinds of content on there.
