Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome to Smart in the city, the BABLE podcast, where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
[00:00:21] Tamlyn Shimizu: I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu, and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
[00:00:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart in the city is brought to you by BABLE Smart cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at BABLE Smartcities EU.
[00:00:45] Tamlyn Shimizu: So today we are diving back into the Urban Innovation Leadership program, and if you don't know what it is already, we have partnered with Urban Innovators Global to build this program as part of the BABLE Academy. This program provides tailored and fully customizable modules to cities and other organizations, delivered by some of the top educators and innovators in the space. So in this episode, we're going to be looking at curriculum, design and industry needs in the urban innovation and smart city space around questions like which competencies and skills are needed for the future to make the changes we really need.
So it is my pleasure now to introduce you to some wonderful guests. And there's a returning guest as well. Introduce you to him first. If you haven't gotten the chance to listen to that episode already, definitely recommend that you check it out. And now he's here to share more knowledge from his side. Raffaele Gareri, he's the partner at Urban Innovators Global, CEO of Urban Futures, and the former CDO of Rome. Welcome Raffaele.
[00:01:49] Raffaele Gareri: Thank you. Thank you, Tamlyn, for your kind introduction. It's a pleasure to be here again.
[00:01:54] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, pleasure to have you again. I love having returned guests and we're already very comfortable with each other. You know the podcast well, so yeah, I'm excited to explore more. And this time you have a counterpart on your side, which is wonderful that you get to exchange with on a lot of interesting topics. Her name is Islam Bouzguenda. She's the lecturer and researcher in smart sustainable cities governance and planning at the University of Twente, Netherlands. Welcome Islam.
[00:02:23] Islam Bouzguenda: Thank you very much, Tamlyn, for the invitation. Glad to be here.
[00:02:28] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, so glad to have you.
So, as Raffaele knows, we like to start off with a little teaser to get us warmed up and in the mood for the main interview part.
And so the teaser I brought for you today, and we can start with you, maybe Islam, describe your daily work life in three emojis okay, three emojis.
[00:02:55] Islam Bouzguenda: I think the first one would be the smiley face emoji. I'm always trying to bring a bit of positive energy to my colleagues and to the office.
The next one probably would be the emoji with the glasses that reflects a bit of knowledge and research and the work in academia.
And probably the third emoji would be the speaking emoji. Being like an educator and having to communicate a lot through the day with students and colleagues also.
[00:03:30] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, yeah, really good, really good. All right, Rafael, what do you have? Which emojis describe your daily life?
[00:03:38] Raffaele Gareri: That's the toughest part of the interview, as usual.
Anyway, I would say the memo emoji that reminds me of learning and knowledge. This is something that I appreciate about my job and my activity during the day. The second one could be grinning face with smiling eyes, which reminds me to fun. I'd like to of course, to be involved in the, in professional matters, but also in a mood of having fun together with colleagues and friends.
And I would say the last one could be coffee cup, just to stay active during the day, stay away and enjoy any moment.
[00:04:38] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, it's very good. I like the coffee actually. It could be for and staying energized, but also could be for like taking a coffee break sometimes within your day. Right. So I like it.
[00:04:51] Islam Bouzguenda: Good.
[00:04:52] Tamlyn Shimizu: So I love to give now the listeners more intel into who you are. What is your background? Islam. Maybe you can start. Tell us, where did you come from? What has your work been like up to this point? And what are you doing nowadays?
[00:05:07] Islam Bouzguenda: Yes, definitely. So I am a mother of two young girls.
I am originally from Tunisia, but I was raised in Oman.
My background in education is engineering. So I started as an architecture engineer. Currently I'm a university lecturer at the University of Twente in the Netherlands. I'm teaching at the Behmes faculty, which is behavioral management and society.
Mainly topics related to smart cities, urban governance and urban innovation in general.
So as I said, I started my career as an architectural engineer. I worked in the industry for a couple of years and then I decided that I would like to pursue an academic career. So I did a master in smart cities planning and then followed with a PhD, also in smart cities governance and planning.
[00:06:11] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really, really interesting. Yeah. And what's your favorite thing about teaching?
[00:06:19] Islam Bouzguenda: I guess it's the interaction with students and also that I get to learn from my students. Sometimes like interacting with students, these discussions within classes. I really enjoy having these with students and getting to learn. Also sometimes new information from my students.
[00:06:40] Tamlyn Shimizu: Absolutely. Yeah. And Rafaele, I know you told us once before, but for those who haven't gotten the chance to listen to that episode, I'd love to have you give us your background. I love hearing about it. And maybe I also learned something new.
[00:06:57] Raffaele Gareri: Yes, many thanks. Yes, I'm married with a son who is now a young Haydoot and my historical background is technical. I'm an electronic engineer. And so I started as a programmer and a team leader in the first year of my career. Then I moved to more managerial roads and I got a master in local government management.
I work first in the province of Brescia, which is an intermediate local government in a place located in between Milan and Venice in the north of Italy. And then I moved to the city of Rome where I was the chief digital officer of the city. And after that I also had an experience as a private manager in a national telco operator that wanted to open a new business unit on smart city matters. And during those years I also had a chance to be the president of a european network of training organization for the Council of Europe. And recently I started the last, the new adventure as an entrepreneur, co founding a startup studio and be a partner of european innovators. Global.
[00:08:28] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, I love hearing about your background. It's so diverse and really leads you to where you're at today. So yeah, we'd love to dig into now a bit more about education and what is the role of education within urban innovation Islam in your extensive experience also?
Yeah, learning and teaching. How do you really view the role of academic institutions in shaping future leaders in this domain?
[00:09:00] Islam Bouzguenda: Yes, definitely. I think that the role of academic, I would say institutions, is mainly providing knowledge, education maybe, and research and equipping these, I would say current students who might be future leaders with the basic knowledge and understandings, for instance, the current urban challenges and then how they might also develop innovative solutions to, I would say, solve these challenges or come up with solutions.
However, I believe that this should be also coupled with practical, I would say experiences. So I believe that it's not just the fact that they should be experiencing. I would say that through education and research, practical experiences are also an important factor in their, I would say, educational path that might equip them to be a more better, I would say urban leaders.
And this might be through, for instance, interdisciplinary collaborations with different sectors, like for instance, the engineering sector, maybe social sciences, probably environmental, also sciences, and also partnerships, I would say with governmental institutions, the public sector, and also maybe the private sector.
[00:10:42] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Do you think that this role is evolving, like we talk right now about there being kind of this systemic change, this big system shift, and things are changing quite quickly now in this digital world. Do you think that that role for academic institutions is also changing?
[00:11:03] Islam Bouzguenda: Yes, definitely. It is changing. I mean, keeping up, for instance, with the massive ubiquity, presence of technology and this massive also evolving of technology is definitely, for instance, one of the challenges for us as educators within academia.
Also, this entered like the, I would say the challenge, the complexity of the urban challenges is something also that adds more, I would say, to the complexity of our role as educators. So urban challenges could, I mean, span, for instance, from the environmental challenges, transportations, water, waste, etcetera. So it's a challenge for us as educators. How can we give this holistic, I would say, perspective to these students and as I said, future, probably urban leaders.
[00:12:09] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now, Rafael, from your perspective, so you worked for quite some years, 25 years, is that correct? In the public domain?
Yeah. And then, so from your perspective, what do you think are some critical gaps between academic preparation and then the real world demands in urban innovation in the public sector? And how can those be addressed?
[00:12:37] Raffaele Gareri: Yes, well, I think that from my experience, most of the times I see that there is a great interest and the topic of urban innovation is very attractive to public managers, officials and so on. But actually, in many other times, there is also the perception that the topic we are talking about, maybe, for example, in a training course, are not so close to the daily needs that they have to face with. So they are interested on one side, but they are also stressed by the fact that they are very busy with daily staff, the lack of time at looking at mid long term goals that in their mind can change their current situation. So this preparation is seen most of the time as a special moment, but not as a plan to improve or to change ordinary tasks. So I think there is the need to step back a while to look at the deep needs and somehow to plan an innovative way to show them that urban innovation is the way to change their daily problems in the mid long term. This is probably the only way, by the way. And so I think there is a need to raise that awareness and belief. And another point I think is there is the need to show those people that they are not alone and that they can work together with other similar colleagues that are facing the same problem.
And the fact that they might have a different background and experience could be, in the end, a real additional value rather than a problem of communication.
[00:14:51] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really, really interesting point to bring up. And so we're talking now about these kind of practical experiences, bridging with this theoretical knowledge, right? And I wonder, from your perspective, Islam, and you mentioned this before, right?
On how they need both, how they need the theoretical and they need the practical experience. When we're talking about students, or I think it's true also when you're learning any new subject as an adult, no matter how old you are, right, you need to learn the theory and apply it in a practical way. So from your perspective, how does like your curriculum integrate these practical experiences and theoretical knowledge and any other examples you can give on this integration piece?
[00:15:41] Islam Bouzguenda: Yes, definitely, probably. It's worth mentioning that particularly at the University of Twente, we are like, it's like as a technical dutch technical university, there is also this focus on the practical, I would say, part. So it's not just a theoretical, I would say university, but we have a good emphasis on applying what, like what we teach students on real world case studies. So at the university we work with something called the Tom model, which is Twent's educational model. The Tom is an abbreviation for a dutch name, I can't really remember it, but it means that for instance, for each, for every year, the students learn, for instance, in four quartiles, and for each of these quartile we have four theoretical, sorry, two to three theoretical courses, and we have one practical obligatory course, which we call a project. So in this project, the students, they get to apply what they learn in these two or three theoretical courses into an actual, I would say, project. So the projects could be, for instance, in my curriculum or in my courses. In one of the projects we had a collaboration with the municipality of Enschede, here in the Twenta region, in which the students, they get to interact with the municipality directly.
They worked, for instance, on a certain challenge, which is the safety within the city.
They approached these public servants there, they learned about the problem, and then they had to use some analytical skills to come up with solutions and then actually implement them within the city and collect data about how is the effect of such solutions. Did they work? Did they not work? What was the, let's say, the final outcomes? Other also, for instance, projects that I did implement in my curriculum is using virtual reality tools to also solve some problems related to, again, safety, for instance, in streets. So students could also get to experiment, I would say, with these technologies and then how they work, how they can collect data through these technologies, and how can they utilize these technologies to come up with solutions. I would say for our everyday urban challenges.
[00:18:34] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really interesting to see that practical experience being applied.
Rafael, what are you seeing as these kind of emerging trends? I don't want to use the word trends because it's more meaningful than that.
I don't have a better word. It, we're going to call it a trend for now. But what do you see as the emerging trends in urban innovation that you think academic programs really need to start incorporating and to stay current, relevant, useful.
What should every curriculum include?
[00:19:15] Raffaele Gareri: Well, first of all, I think that there is need to tailor the program to the specific needs of a specific city. So we know that the path of innovation is different from cities to cities, even if there are, of course, in common some principles, some context. But the starting point could be different. So the understanding of which is the current state of the art and which is the basis, the platform upon which to improve is a key aspect, in my opinion, for this kind of academic program. But moving more to the condo, let me say, I think there is in general a great need of supporting the growth of leadership inside the community.
So this is a key success factor, in my opinion, together with the ability of building a vision in a specific community. So it's something that goes beyond the set of projects or initiative, is something that group all of it and give the real sense of what we are aiming for and why there is the need of this effort of change, of innovation. And finally, I think it's important to find a way to establish the habits or having this kind of program, not just inside a single entity, inside a single organization, but together with the other stakeholders of the city, of the urban context. Because we know that the change, the innovation inside a city is something that may happen because there is a coherent action, a convergent action among all the players. And so also the academic program should try to group all of them and to help all of them to have a single joint vision and to share the leadership that probably is inside each of those organizations.
[00:21:44] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really, really interesting points that you touch on there. And maybe for you both with those aspects when teaching, when educating about urban innovation, what do you think are the biggest challenges that we're facing when we talk about educating the future leaders of urban innovation?
Rafael, maybe you want to start with also some challenges that you're seeing pop up.
[00:22:11] Raffaele Gareri: Yeah, I mentioned someone before. So in my opinion, we need to spread the message that innovation is feasible, is doable, because sometimes most of the players are worried, fear about the fact that they can manage to do this while they needed to know that they are not alone, that they could be part of a community, a community maybe somehow pioneers, but still a community that can help each other.
And it's important also to sustain the approach of working together with others, no matter the different backgrounds that they could have. So it's not just a matter of it guys, but it's a matter of people in charge of mobility together, those in charge of social assistance of public works, politicians and technicians, academic people and entrepreneurs.
And yes, last point again, I mentioned a little bit before, in my opinion, is that the importance of developing a joint vision for a territory so that the existing ongoing projects could be seen as pieces of a single puzzle that can represent the future of that community.
[00:23:58] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. What skills do you think you need? Like what skills do the leaders need?
I don't know if you can name a few. To be able to do those, to be able to tackle those challenges. What are those skill sets that they're building?
[00:24:16] Raffaele Gareri: In general? I would say the ability of working out of their traditional application domain, out of their specific vertical. So this ability to talk with people about communication, finance, ethics, security and so on, not just that, the specific problem, because sometimes, most of the times, let me say, having common infrastructure among those domains can the real unexpected solution to the specific problem. So this idea of, of being able to have a transversal approach to the problems and to the solution I think could be the winning key.
[00:25:09] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for outlining that. Islam, what about you? What do you think are the key challenges that we're facing when we're educating these urban innovation leaders?
[00:25:23] Islam Bouzguenda: I would say from my own perspective as an educator at university, for me personally, the biggest challenges is the complexity, I would say, of the urban challenges themselves. So for instance, spanning, as I said, from housing challenges, waste, flooding, transportation.
It's a bit complicated for me as an educator to cover all of that in, for instance, one course or even two courses. So that's why I would emphasize the idea of interdisciplinary collaborations that could even happen within the same university.
For instance, I'm teaching more, I would say, on the social sciences perspectives of these urban challenges in mainly the bachelor program of management, society and technology. And our bachelor students are regularly encouraged, for instance, to take, I would say, courses as.
Yeah, additional, I would say courses in electives. Yeah, I forgot the name, sorry. As electives in, for instance, in the engineering faculty. So they could also have another perspective on the same problem, for instance the transportation or waste or water from more of, I would say another sector.
Another also challenge I mentioned also earlier is the rapid technology advancement so, for instance, when I am explaining in one of the classes the idea of utilizing AI, for instance, in the public sector, my students, they were already, for instance, talking or discussing about the, the metaverse and the latest technologies in that regard.
So it's challenging also to keep up with all these advancements and rapid advancements. So for me, as a solution might be to keep myself up to date with these technologies, read as much as possible.
Yeah. I also have this knowledge spread from colleagues and probably also encourage my students to experiment with these new technologies. So if they are interested in a new technology that we haven't, let's say, yet discussed, so I would encourage them to experiment with it and share these acquired knowledges with the rest of their colleagues.
[00:28:08] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good points. I think the, the need for this interdisciplinary approach is obviously very prevalent. So for maybe I'll ask you, Rafael, in your experience, I think we're talking about the role of academic institutions in education.
How have you seen it play out? And maybe a practical example of collaboration between a public sector, private sector academic institution. Can you give any practical example of where you've seen this really be successful?
[00:28:46] Raffaele Gareri: Yes. I'd like to share an initiative, a project that I was dealing with a few years ago in Brescia. It was a public and private partnership for a smart lighting initiative in 28 small municipalities. So that was, in my opinion, a nice experience, because first of all, it was an opportunity for smaller communities to be part of the innovation process, because sometimes there is the thinking that that is something affordable just for big cities, while this was an example where all the small communities, staying altogether in a single initiative, manages to attract investments from private players in the same way as mid big cities could do. And second, was interesting, because this public and private partnership showed how you can join innovation in a traditional problem issue like lighting. No, I mean, that's not something new. But that was the opportunity not only to modernize the light system infrastructure, but also to add a modern wireless connectivity in those smaller municipalities.
And last, I enjoyed a lot the cooperation between all the players. I mean, there were lots of meetings with officials of small municipalities and experts, as well as meeting with politicians and experts and representatives from academia, but also meetings with citizens to explain what we were doing for them and which was the innovative part and why. So for all of us, it was an unconventional learning path, because, of course, we started with an idea, with some also concept of innovation, but then going through this process together with these meetings and with the contribution of all the parties, we ended in something slightly different from the beginning, and it was as if we learned on the job. So that was a great example, in my opinion, of cooperation between all parties. And finally, we had chance also to involve professor from university, to be part of the tenor commission. So to somehow typically solve the problem of an academic approach towards a practical case. And so the fact that we were affecting 28 municipality all together, that was my opinion. A great example. Still modern, let me say, about how the partnership with all the different partners, and how de aggregation could be a way to innovate everywhere.
[00:32:28] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good example to bring to the table.
Islam, do you also have an example of a time when you brought all the players to the table?
[00:32:41] Islam Bouzguenda: Yes, I would like to mention, actually, I would say academic public sector collaboration that involved citizens as well. In this partnership, it was mainly, I would say, collaboration, in which, let's say, the public sector were, they needed some more insightful, I would say, information into the problem of lack of participation in decision making within the city, which was in the city of, in the Netherlands.
So we agreed on a certain, I would say, limit, that we are going to utilize some innovative technologies to try to attract more citizens into the public participation process, in which the citizens were asked to participate in taking decisions, for instance, related to their neighborhoods planning. So there was like a refurbishment of a new neighborhood in the city, in which the streets need to replant, also public spaces, parks, etcetera.
And the city was expecting basically citizens to have a say in that, in this process. However, as I said, they were lacking participation or interest from citizens to participate.
And this lack of interest was particularly within, let's say, less advantaged neighborhoods within the city. So the collaboration was aiming, as I said, to utilize certain type of technologies that utilizes like 3d modeling and virtual reality models to facilitate the participatory planning process in more of 3d environments, which is much more easier for citizens maybe to interact and understand than regular, I would say, plans and documents.
So, yeah, this was really an insightful collaboration, because, to be honest, the outcome were not expected, or as expected, the citizens, or these less advantaged citizens, who were asked to participate in this decision making process through these, they call it fancy technologies.
They didn't really appreciate that. So on the contrary, I would say it was not a success. So we didn't actually attract much of the interest of the citizens. And there were complaints about that the municipality is wasting their money on these fancy technologies, that the municipality probably could have paid more attention to their everyday struggles. For instance, some of them, they were ropeless, or they are struggling to feed their children, etcetera. So the final recommendation, I would say, from this collaboration was actually to consider carefully when and where and with whom to utilize technologies and which kind of technology, basically to have, let's say, fruitful solution.
[00:36:18] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, there you can see definitely a powerful role for academia.
Briefly, I want you both to say, when educating leaders in urban innovation, what does success look like? Rafaela?
[00:36:36] Raffaele Gareri: Well, I think that when you register a different attitude after this kind of moment, to use the existing resources that cities have in terms of human resources, financial resources, but also current initiative, that is an indicator that something in their mind changes and they start to understand how to build something new upon the existing state of the art. No.
And second, I think that there is a success when you can see that after this brainstorming, there is the wheel of a planning of a new innovation program. And there is an understanding that education in this context can be a sort of engine to accelerate and govern, above all, the digital transformation that any way the society is facing now. So when there is the feeling that those people understand that they can play an active role rather than staying passive.
[00:38:00] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really, really good insights. I think the shift in mindset is definitely super key when you're looking at the outcomes and what success looks like.
Islam, what does success look like?
[00:38:13] Islam Bouzguenda: That's really an interesting question.
I would say I really feel like, I would say I have the feeling of success when I see, for instance, some of my former students taking like decision making roles.
Sometimes they approach me through LinkedIn or I see their announcements, for instance, on LinkedIn, and I even feel like the success further, when I see them, for instance, working on actual projects, applying what they have learned in the right way, using, for instance, critical thinking and analytical skills to develop these innovative solutions, while keeping in mind the, for instance, the ethical considerations, the social responsibility, equity and inclusivity, all these, I would say, considerations that we have told them during the programs.
[00:39:16] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good points.
With that, we're through the main interview part and I want to get to a second. And this segment that we've chosen for you today, it's called inspire us.
[00:39:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Inspire us just a little bit with a story, a quote or anything that has inspired you recently.
[00:39:43] Tamlyn Shimizu: Who would like to start?
[00:39:45] Raffaele Gareri: Well, I think I'm even now after to unfortunately, going many years of job experience, I more and more convinced that even if, let me say we as experts, we would like to contribute in designing the new evolution of cities, the new shape of cities. The fact that every time is the how actually is the contribution of ordinary people that can change and give the force to change things. So I try to remind myself how important it is to keep the dialogue open and how it's important the citizen engagement in these kind of things. So even more than I know, let me say by theory, but practical situation, tell me that how this is critical and inspirational also.
[00:41:01] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Islam, have you heard a quote or story or anything that inspired you?
[00:41:10] Islam Bouzguenda: Yeah, there is a quote that I was trying to get, so I will read the quote quoted this in my PhD thesis and it was really an actual inspiration for me. The quote is by solow in, it was in actually 1950. And he said the majority of productivity growth in society derived not as much from technology, as much from human knowledge and creativity, which are the two essential components of innovation.
So I still believe, after all of these, I would say, years researching the idea of technology, smart cities, innovation, etcetera, that it is that smartness is rooted within, let's say, this human nature. It's not about, I would say, just these technical products or these technologies themselves. However, it is like the growth derived from the society itself. From within. Inside the society.
[00:42:21] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really well put. I like the quote a lot as well. And impressive that it comes from a long time ago, but can still be applied today, right?
[00:42:31] Islam Bouzguenda: Yeah, definitely.
[00:42:32] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah. And maybe that leads also good into our final question. And that's the question we ask every single guest that comes onto the podcast. And maybe Islam, you can start because we've heard Rafael is already once and maybe he wants to shift some things. But Islam, to you, what is a smart city?
[00:42:52] Islam Bouzguenda: I would say, as a continuation of the quote and then my understanding of the smart city, it's again, like, I believe that smart city is not about technology, it's about the smartness of, like, within the society, the, the actual interactions within the society. Keeping in mind these social interactions, these, the values, for instance, of the society, like equity, inclusivity, ethical considerations, I think these are the roots of the, of a smart city model. And then we can add to that, I would say spring of technology or innovation.
[00:43:37] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really well put, Rafael. Maybe you want to add something also to Islam's definition or elaborate on that.
[00:43:47] Raffaele Gareri: Well, I think I could say more or less a similar content, maybe with different words.
I like to say that a smart city is a place where all the players start to build together the culture of innovation, where the culture starts from the understanding of the needs of the different parties that there are in a community and tries to take advantage of all the tools that community can use. And technology is for sure some of those tools, but it's not the only one. And so this ability of sharing a common culture and sharing a single approach is what, in my opinion, can make a community smart in terms of how to identify the right future for that specific community.
[00:44:57] Tamlyn Shimizu: I really love the starting from the needs of the people, right? And it seems so intuitive. Like, it seems like of course we start from the needs, but actually in practicality, it's actually not done that often.
So I really, really love that point, Rafael.
With that, that's all I have for you today. I really appreciate both of your times to come onto the podcast to really share your expertise and share what education means also to you. So thank you so much for coming on.
[00:45:32] Raffaele Gareri: Thank you for the invitation.
[00:45:34] Islam Bouzguenda: Yeah, thank you very much for the invitation. I really enjoyed this discussion.
[00:45:40] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, me as well. So thank you so much. And to all of our listeners, thank you as well for listening. And don't forget, you can always create a free account on BABLE dash smartcities EU. You can find out more about smart city projects, solutions and implementations. Thank you very much.
[00:45:57] Islam Bouzguenda: Thank you all for listening.
[00:45:59] Tamlyn Shimizu: I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
