Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome to Smart in the city, the BABLE podcast where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu, and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
Smart in the city is brought to you by BABLE Smart cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at BABLE Smartcities. Eu welcome back to another episode of Smart in the city, everyone. This is a special episode hosted by one of my colleagues, my colleague Melike. I hope you enjoy the change in voice and pace and I will catch you next time.
[00:00:59] Melike Nur Ülsever: Hello everyone. It's my pleasure to host this final podcast episode of SMC net Zero series to talk about small, medium sized cities and how to best support them in their decarbonization journey. If you remember our first SMC net zero episode, if not, we invite you to go back and listen to it. We started this series with partners of SMC Net Zero Consortium telling us all about the objectives of the project project. So now we want to come full circle and left it on benefits and outputs the cities have gotten from the project and what lies ahead and how cities can get involved following the project. So for that, it's my pleasure to introduce Clara Plata Rios, project director at Smart City Cluster, Spain. Welcome Clara.
[00:01:48] Clara Plata Rios: Thanks a lot, Melike.
[00:01:49] Melike Nur Ülsever: And also Goran Lampelj, project coordinator at Odraz Sustainable community Development. And also welcome to Goran.
[00:01:58] Goran Lampelj: Thank you. And it's nice to be here.
[00:02:01] Melike Nur Ülsever: Happy to hear that. So before we start, we actually like to have some teaser questions. And here I want to make a throwback Thursday concept to make you remember what is the best memory of the project so far, and also the worst, maybe starting from ladies.
[00:02:18] Clara Plata Rios: well, for me, I think that the better moment was when we finally met together in Denmark, because it was really nice to finally see the 3d versions of all of us.
It's very nice because after a lot of months just meeting you through screens, having the opportunity of meeting and having a chat face to face was really, really a great moment. And, well, I don't know. We have had a bad moment, but you know, the worst maybes, you know, when we are struggling to finish something before a deadline or something like that. But I must say that we haven't any bad moment at this moment.
[00:03:08] Melike Nur Ülsever: Happy to hear that. I can also relate. Tight deadlines and Goran for you.
[00:03:14] Goran Lampelj: Well, actually I can say the same thing as Clara or mention the same thing Clara mentioned. So basically the moment when we finally met in Copenhagen was a really good thing. Something I will remember, I believe. Actually Clara, you were the first one I met on the bus while going to the door.
[00:03:35] Clara Plata Rios: Living web.
[00:03:36] Goran Lampelj: So this was, this. This is like really something you remember because after seeing on regular basis people online and then finally you meet them live, it's something really nice and considering bad things. Yeah, okay. Deadlines can be stressful. The technology didn't work really well all the time, considering some of the programs we used. But in general I can't say that we had really a tough period or something because. And it has to do a lot with the people involved. So basically I will not have any negative memories on this project.
[00:04:15] Melike Nur Ülsever: That's happy to hear. But I believe sometimes teams is also not the best tool to work with. You know, sometimes it might cause problems, but we still use it effectively. So then actually we have known each other for a long time, but for our guests, I want to ask actually starting from Clara again, like what's your background? What you work in smart city cluster?
[00:04:36] Clara Plata Rios: Yeah, well, my background is in. I have a bachelor and a PhD in physics and I have a bachelor as well in industrial engineering. And well, I've been working in things related to technologies and smart cities for a while now. So that's why I try to contribute with in the smart city cluster, trying to help everybody to be smarter.
[00:05:01] Melike Nur Ülsever: Good to hear. And Goram, for you, what's your background?
[00:05:04] Goran Lampelj: Well, my background is mobility, but more precisely railway traffic. I studied railway traffic at Zagreb University here and kind of developed from the railways towards sustainable urban mobility, since it covers a lot of my interest from urban spaces over climate neutrality to mobility.
But still, despite so predictable, I still find release fascinating. So these are still my, you know, this is still my baby.
[00:05:36] Melike Nur Ülsever: I would say so. Actually we were saying it's been 16 months to project and we are about to actually finishing the project as well. But for those who don't know the project yet. Goran, can you describe the main goals of the project? Who is involved so far?
[00:05:53] Goran Lampelj: So basically you milk already mentioned, it's a horizon project, 18 months duration of the project.
The point is, what stands behind is the fact that many of similar projects dealing with climate neutrality were organized and were performed for the bigger cities.
As the name says, it's small and medium sized cities, so those that are smaller than 100,000 inhabitants. And the importance is that still the twice as many people live in smaller cities than in the big ones. And these small cities are usually left behind, because many of these projects that we had until now, they were actually organized and performed just for the huge cities from 1 million or above. And automatically the small cities were left behind. So they felt left behind. There were many obstacles in achieving climate neutrality, as we already noticed during this project performance. So they have many problems, many obstacles they are dealing with. And the point was trying to make it as literal, not just to know name all the details. The point is, as our dear colleague Lotte von BLOXHUB said, it should be clear and simple, so the cities should not struggle with it. The cities should have clear guidelines and should find themselves somewhere on the path to climate neutrality, because without changing these things in small and medium sized cities, we will not achieve climate neutrality by 2050 in Europe. So this is the point of the project, is simply to give them networking, know how, opportunities, access to diverse solutions for these small and medium sized cities, and to give them help, or where they lack capacity. We should come and fit in, I would say, or jump in.
[00:07:53] Melike Nur Ülsever: That was a good summary of all the work being done so far. So this question I would like to ask you both, but we'll start with Clara. So can you share some of the most significant achievements and the benefits that cities actually have experience so far as a result of participating the SMC net zero project?
[00:08:12] Clara Plata Rios: Yeah. Well, I think that we have two kind of achievements. We have on one side, some, let's say, tangible achievements, and some very important intangibles as well.
Between the tangible achievements, we have developed a beautiful training course where some of the cities to made some months ago, we had three modules where they have the opportunity of experiencing one physical session. That was really nice. In Copenhagen, we have as well incredible digital forum where all the resources and all the different achievements of the project are summarized. And even these roadmap that we are trying to create in order to help cities to find out where are they placed already in this path through the next year or already, and to really know which are the steps that are still to be done in order to get that goal and those intangible things related to the networking that we are creating through this project. Because I think that we have really strengthened the relationship that some of us already had between the members of the consortium, which I, I think that it's a very important thing, but we have created a beautiful network of experts all along Europe and of cities as well. So for me, that's one of the main achievements of the project at this moment, this possibility of getting people know each other better and know which are the concerns and the success stories of cities all across Europe.
[00:09:50] Melike Nur Ülsever: I agree with you also, I believe you facilitate so much peer to peer learning experience as well between small medium sized cities too. But Koran, for you, from your point of view, what was the most significant achievement of the project that benefits small medium sized cities?
[00:10:08] Goran Lampelj: Well, I think that everything that Clara already mentioned, I would emphasize, of course, the roadmap, because I believe it's a great tool which kind of lowers all the hate when somebody doesn't want, when city administration does not want, want to be compared to other cities, because they find it like we are not the same, we are not similar. Basically, a roadmap shows you, yes, you are similar more than you think you are. And I think this is a really good tool which helps and enables the cities to start this journey or to continue the journey, but also the workshop, the positive feedback from all the cities. I can also, I'm sure for the croatian cities that joined the workshop, they were really, really satisfied. And as you mentioned, the peer to peer learning, the communication, the situation where you have different cities, being in Copenhagen, talking to each other, discussing, and later on also online discussing some problems. I think these were the biggest achievements. So an overview of really good tools to get into this climate neutrality direction. I think this is something that should be, that's really, really good. And this is something what makes this project a little bit different than the others.
[00:11:33] Melike Nur Ülsever: I also have another question for you, Guran, because we mentioned so much about small medium sized cities, but actually throughout the project, we engage and try to work with also different type of stakeholders as well that works with small medium sized cities, maybe day to day, such as local government, businesses and community organizations. So I want to ask you, how has the project fostered actually collaboration among different stakeholders?
[00:11:58] Goran Lampelj: Well, I think that for starters, if you look at the project team of this SNC net zero, we are different.
We are all going a little bit into this NGO or CSO direction. But in general, we all work with diverse stakeholders, with cities.
For the beginning, when we actually involved our cities, there was a networking between different stakeholders. Also, when this market research used also the connections to small and medium sized enterprises, where we gathered information from both private sector, from public sector, where you actually already engage them and the communication starts, I think it's very important to start the communication combination from not just talking to one kind of stakeholder. Everybody should be included. And in the way, when you also gave them the opportunity to enroll, to sign into an online portal to you. Here you have make a strong network, and then everybody is basically equal. Everybody can ask questions, get information. And this is the, I think that the digital forum is a great platform where you actually see how the SMC net zero covered all the stakeholders and gave them the same opportunities to start collaborating. Of course, it's now up to some cities or some organizations or companies, whether they want to promote themselves further or engage themselves. This is something we cannot do. But the possibility is here, and this is something the way I think it should be done.
[00:13:48] Melike Nur Ülsever: Anything else you want to adhere, Clara?
[00:13:51] Clara Plata Rios: No, I think that Goran has again said everything, that it's really important in this sense. So nothing to add? Because as he mentioned, it was really interesting to the opportunity of highlighting those stakeholders that he mentioned and to find these new ways and these new motivation to engage them. So I totally agree with them.
[00:14:19] Melike Nur Ülsever: Okay, then I want to take you, Clara, maybe beginning of the project, to refer a little bit to our market analysis report that actually we collected so much information about what are the current challenges of small, medium sized cities, but as well as a solution provider for enterprises as well. So I want to ask you, like, how actually we have been utilizing this information throughout the project, identify key opportunities, the challenges that support the transition, actually to net zero?
[00:14:50] Clara Plata Rios: Well, I think that it's been used in many ways, which is something that makes me very happy, because it was a lot of work, but I think that it was a very useful work, because at the very beginning, the simple fact of identifying who to be interviewed, I think that it served to opened the first communication channels with cities and companies, which I think it's a very interesting thing, because we gave from the very beginning, them the opportunity of being the starrings of this project.
And I think that that's really nice, because all the members of the consortium, as Gaurav mentioned before, we've been already working with cities and with companies for a long while, but we gave them this opportunity of really complaining about things, letting us know about their concerns, their problems, but as well about their successes, about the things that they would like to be able to achieve and things like that. So I think that this first approach to them was really nice, and the content in itself was very useful because it served us, I think, as members of the consortium, to confirm the things that we thought that we already know about the state of the art, of the smart cities in Europe, and even to identify things that we were not thinking about, because all of us are focused in a certain region of Europe, but having this opportunity of knowing about what's happening in other places is always interesting, and it serves to find out the common points and the differences that different regions have related to these kind of things, the kind of resources, the kind of areas, even the kind of topics that are important for cities and this stuff. So, and that's why I think it was important because it served us to shape properly the contents of the training, for example, and to really define something that was of interest and of use for the cities.
It serves us as well to identify the right stakeholders, as we mentioned before, and to increase the knowledge of the cities and companies about who could help them developing these kind of projects in Europe.
It serves well to us to feed this digital forum with information that was really important for the cities and for the companies.
And well, at the end I think that we really struck some conclusions that will help improve this state of the net zero thing in Europe.
[00:17:36] Melike Nur Ülsever: I agree with you too. I believe also this research and information was like a compass for us to, you know, again confirm where we want to go with the project and how we can support. But also I believe it provide us a good, actually again, like a feedback, as Goram mentioned some minutes ago, about how cities think they don't have the similar challenges, but at the end, you know, they say all the doors opposed to rope. So it was a similar approach. So that's why now I want to ask actually both of you, maybe starting with Koran this time, what similarities then, do all small medium sized cities share? Can you give us some examples throughout the project?
[00:18:17] Goran Lampelj: Well, this might sound a little bit negative, most probably, but it's true that basically all the small and medium sized cities like capacity. I would say this is something that we have noticed during the research. And also when you talk to colleagues from the cities to their representatives, they basically lack the capacity, especially in the part of Europe, southeastern part of Europe, where we operate, so to say, odras, through our also civilnet network.
Yes, the capacity is a problematic thing. And basically, if you have a smaller amount of employees dealing with communal issues and basically having to deal with waste disposal system, with lamp posts or with whether the grass has been mowed or not, you know, somebody complaining about it, the problem is then that you can't actually develop a vision of the development of the city you are responsible for. This is something, although maybe it's not the best thing to finish or round up the podcast and project in a negative way, but this is something that we have noticed that each of the smaller, or many of the smaller cities have income common. So lack of capacity, and due to the lack of capacity, lack of ideas, that's where such projects then come really, really handy. And that's where they can gather either ideas, they can gather also, you know, know how. And this is something that can be useful. I would say to them, maybe this is quite a negative, negative approach, but also something that's very common to all the cities. Each of the cities we have interviewed is actually on the. Has started the journey to net zero. This is also something that we have noticed that cities are on the journey. They lack marketing skills. From time to time, you can see that they have not showed it in the best or presented in the best way, but out of diverse reasons, they have started their journey. And now it's, you know, the needs. So the overall thing is the need to somehow organize it and to better, you know, solve the way or the roadmap, so to say, in which way to go.
[00:20:55] Melike Nur Ülsever: Yes, I think it's not actually a negative approach, actually Korram, but still showing maybe after SMC net zero, how other projects still needs to continue supporting small medium sized cities. And now I want to ask Clara, what do you think the similarities of all small medium sized cities share?
[00:21:13] Clara Plata Rios: Just two addings to what Goran has just said. One is the concern of most of the cities about how to properly engage citizenship, which is a very. I think that that's really a challenge, and it's really important to really develop successful projects. And some of them showed some interesting, beautiful approaches, but it used to be a concern that all of them share. And another point that was, you know, it was even a feeling that rose to me after all the meetings that I had and all the interviews, is the importance of finding the right people to find the. It doesn't matter if they are politicians or if they are technicians, but you need to have the right people on the cities that have this sensibility in order to really appreciate the benefits that this kind of projects can bring to their cities. So we have just interviewed cities that are interested in these topics. And maybe that's why, maybe it's a hidden result of the interviews, but I think that for sure it's key. I had the opportunity of speaking with some technicians whose politician team has changed, and you felt that they were really happy because they have finally found a politician that was really supporting them. So for me, finding the right people in any place in order to develop this kind of projects is key. And that's one of the results of the project too.
[00:22:58] Melike Nur Ülsever: I definitely agree that as well. So another question actually, that I want to ask both of you. So some critics argue that the ambitious goals set by projects like Ors SMC net zero may not be feasible or may be scalable for all cs, especially with the those. Now we are talking, right, limited resources or it's differing due to local context. So how do you address concerns that one size fits all approach might not work? And what measures are in place to ensure that strategies developed through SMC net zero or outputs of the project can be adapted to meet unique needs of the cities.
[00:23:41] Clara Plata Rios: For example? I think that in this sense, the roadmap that we have developed within the projects is a very, very useful tool, because sometimes things are difficult, because you don't know how to manage them or how to handle them. And the first thing is to analyze what makes sense in your case, because not all the cities has the same problems, not for all of them, the problems to solve are the same. And having a tool helping identify which is your place in this map to net zero, it's very important. And after that, once you more or less has a draft of the steps that you have to follow, it's easier to figure out how to follow it. So because it is easier in terms of knowing the resources that you need to find, it's easy both in terms of human resources and economical resources. So, and that would be, for me, one of the main points, and the other one is finding these right ways of gayed in the citizenship engaged, because if you have the support of the citizens, everything becomes much more easier, I think. So for me, those are the two key points in order to help them.
[00:25:01] Goran Lampelj: Well, I agree with what Clara said. I would also mention that it doesn't matter if each city should decide whether they want to address the situation with the mobility and make it more climate friendly. If it's about the housing part or waste, each city should decide where is the burning problem, what should be addressed. But I really like the approach of sustainable urban mobility plans. The sumps, they really, I think, cover the approach from gathering the data, gathering the vision, which show basically what kind of the city you want to have or what kind of mobility you want to have. Then taking all stakeholders into consideration, the constant dialogue between the citizens and the city administration, this is something, as Clara said, it's very, very important to have it in order to have an acceptance, and you will then easily have the project done, or the project will be accepted by a broad public. And this is actually, the critics say that this is ambitious. Yeah, it is ambitious to be climate neutral in 2050, but this project gives you the tools, how to do it and sump approach, where you have the main steps, as in our roadmap, you have the main steps, what needs to be done, which information you basically need, and afterwards you tailor it, considering some specifics of each city, you tailor some solutions in the end, but basically the step is the same now, depending on the climate situation or so, basically, geographically, area, or some other specific details of your city. But basically the steps are the same, and you just need to take it to, you know, you have to have an idea, you have to have the thoughts of all the stakeholders, especially citizens. You have diverse solutions and you just tailor them. So it's, it's s and P and also SMC net zero. This is, I would say, like a special kind of pre made procedure. So it's kind of custom made, because although the steps are the same, each step gives you the opportunity to tailor it a little bit towards your needs. And this is every time when somebody is speaking against such projects. I believe that this is also probably the reason that we had many projects which were really custom made for just a few cities, and they were not, you know, they were not really one size fits all. And for sure, this SMC net zero is not one size fits all. Fits all. I see it really more like an sump approach. These are the steps. This is the vision, this is the idea. And now you go and have fun and make something out of it.
[00:28:13] Melike Nur Ülsever: I actually agree with you. And also maybe bring memory or an information from the project for our actually listeners, because actually, we already considered while we were preparing our capacity building training program for cities. And that's why we actually already, I would say, incorporated a stage called local adaptation state, right, like, where they can implement the learnings from the general learnings and the solutions to their local context. And they were sharing, the cities were sharing their projects and the current concerns, and we were opening some discussions about how, one city to another, they can help each other. So it is also, I would say, a part of the project that we were carefully considering, like all this, all these, I would say big talks are coming to a real implementation for cities as well. So I would like to ask maybe one of our last questions, and I want to go more excited, excited. Part exciting, part sorry. Of the project to Clara. So I'm wondering, looking ahead, actually, what are the next steps of the SMC net zero project? What is expecting us in coming two to three months?
[00:29:22] Clara Plata Rios: Well, we have to finalize this definition of the. Well, it is defined already, but we have to finalize making this digital forum. We have still a lot of work to really upload all the information and all the results that we get. And I think that another key thing for us in the following months is to find new ways of keep working on that. I think that we have created a great network of entities, cities and experts that should keep working together. So for me it's something that goes beyond the finishing of the project, but we definitely should find a way of keep doing things like that. And of course, to try to maximize the impact of the results of the project and try to make all those results. I mean, the training materials, these podcasts, let's say all the materials that we have created should be able to reach the higher public as possible. So that for me it's the main thing in the following months.
[00:30:31] Melike Nur Ülsever: And Goron, anything else you want to add?
[00:30:33] Goran Lampelj: Well, my answer would be the similar as clariss. So basically finishing some of the things already that are in progress, especially putting your emphasis on digital form and finding ways to continue collaboration and work, because I think that both the colleagues and the team is really strong and really makes sense to continue working and to continue cooperating. And it's. Yeah, further promotion of the thing should be vital in order not to just have the KPI's fulfilled, just, but to do more. Because I think there is more and there should be more. And we can always work as like those that are needed for the cities, to give them help, to give them ideas, to give them vision.
Because I'm coming back to the problem.
Lack of capacity shows the need for similar projects.
And maybe sometimes it's not really necessary to have 20 digital forums. I think that good digital forum is ours should be satisfied. So, you know, our digital form can fill the gaps and between the ideas and solutions of the cities.
[00:31:57] Melike Nur Ülsever: I also think the SMC net Zero Digital Forum will be maybe one of the legacies of the project, because we bring there also other digital tools created from other EU projects, also use cases, and it's a free to join for cities too. So happily, if you are curious, you can go to our project webpage to check it out.
So before we are coming to our actually smart in the city segments, one of our favorite segments, I want to ask. Anything else besides these questions that you want to leave our audience with or share with them?
[00:32:31] Clara Plata Rios: Well, I think that as you've mentioned, the digital forum is a nice place to find all the conclusions, all the materials, and it's a nice place to start a good relationship with a lot of different entities and cities all around Europe. So I would really like to invite everybody that is interested in these kind of things to take a look to it and to be in touch with us and try to contribute, even with their questions, their materials, if they have anything that can help with this path. And I think that's all.
We want to keep growing, we want to keep developing things, we want to keep helping cities. So anyone that can help us with this task is welcome.
[00:33:24] Melike Nur Ülsever: And you, Goron, anything that you want.
[00:33:26] Goran Lampelj: To add, I will just add. And also, if you need help or if you want to promote your good solutions, there are some good practice examples.
All these things can actually help you to either find new partners or to find new projects. And these are just the benefits for your city. And a little bit of good marketing, especially well placed marketing, never does any harm. So basically, other cities will surely like to see all the good things and solutions you have to offer and how you did it. So why not use the opportunity? And after all, you know, we're having it at discount. Price of euro is one of €0 monthly. So basically.
So basically, it's really something. That's what should be the point and the essence of each EU funded project. And that's that since it's EU funded, it should purpose, you know, to all and contribute to the well being of all the citizens. I know it sounds poetic, but that's the point. The point is that it's not just, you know, after it's finished, it's gone. It should continue, and there should be some special, some added value in that kind of sense, as Clara also mentioned.
[00:34:38] Melike Nur Ülsever: Okay, so now we can go one of our favorite segments in the podcast episode, which is the flip the script.
[00:34:47] Tamlyn Shimizu: Flip the script.
You are the one asking the questions and I'll be the one answering them.
[00:34:59] Melike Nur Ülsever: After working 16 months elbow to elbow, I want to direct a question to you. Do you have any question to each other besides professionally? Personally?
[00:35:12] Goran Lampelj: For the co interview, we had actually the chit chat in the bus when we met. We covered it, you know, but there were only two of us, so sorry. You know, it's our thing.
[00:35:24] Clara Plata Rios: Yeah.
So maybe the only thing, but that's for all of us, is when to find a way of meeting again face to face.
[00:35:33] Melike Nur Ülsever: I guess this is a question we need to answer with all the partners.
[00:35:37] Goran Lampelj: Yeah, that would be great. Because the only minus of this project was that we really didn't have a lot of chances to meet live. There were many meetings online, but simply not the same as when you meet life. And we don't mind going to, or, I don't mind to go to, I don't know, Barcelona or whatever. So there are waters, you know, we can go there for sure.
[00:36:02] Melike Nur Ülsever: Yeah. But also, maybe we also need to remind our listeners that, right, most of our project partners are from different regions, so we have partners from, actually, Nordics from Germany, from Spain, from, like, Balkans, from UK. So it's also difficult to find a common place to meet. So I want to remind that again. But if you don't have any questions to each other, guess what? We have a question for you. This is actually one of our recurring questions in the podcast series that we ask to every guest. So I can maybe start with Clara, then leave the word to go around. So, according to your point of view, what is a smart city?
[00:36:40] Clara Plata Rios: Clara, that's a very nice question. And in fact, it's a topic that we are trying to develop and try to change the traditional concept, smart cities in the cluster where I work, because for us, a smart city has nothing to do with technology.
But we think in a more citizen focused point of view of what smart city is. For us, a smart city is a city where citizens are comfortable, where they have the technology that they need and they know how to use in order to make their lives better. But it is not a matter of having a lot of sensors everywhere that nobody knows how to use or what they are for. So for us, it's a matter of having the right amount of technology in order to make the most of it and to increase the impact on their citizens lives as much as possible.
[00:37:39] Melike Nur Ülsever: And for you, Goran, what is a smart city?
[00:37:43] Goran Lampelj: Well, after somebody from smart city cluster defining it that way, who am I to object, you know?
No, I totally agree. It does have to do with smart city.
First of all, I'm not seeing it. Some people are seeing it, like big brother style. No, definitely not. Smart city is, first of all, should be a pleasant place to live. So all the services which normal city does have should be even developed and put on a higher level thanks to the use of technology. But it's not the point. The point is, if using the data, I will go back again to the sustainable mobility. And it's not about the standard programming where you do the measures, you gather the data, and then afterwards you provide. So it's like you provide the number of lanes, what you need, it's more like decide and provide. So it's not predict and provide, it's decide and provide where you use the sensors. But first of all, the important thing is that you decide what kind of a city you want to have and we want to live in, this is what I think. And then use using all the technology and all the necessary data, or you can then make it happen and make this vision, you know, fulfill the vision. That's the idea. Not just following it to technology standards and stuff like that. But yeah.
[00:39:14] Melike Nur Ülsever: Dan, thank you so much because we came to an end for our recording your last SMC net zero episode recording. It was my pleasure to host you today. And thank you so much.
[00:39:26] Goran Lampelj: Thank you for having us. Yes, it was interesting and I'm actually looking forward for another podcast for another project. I hope soon we will have some more podcasts. I guess for some other projects we.
[00:39:38] Melike Nur Ülsever: Will have to add to our proposals next week. We have happily great. And to all of our listeners, don't forget you can always create a free account on BABLE smart cities EU to find out more about smart city projects, solutions and implementations. Thank you very much.
[00:39:58] Tamlyn Shimizu: Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
