Episode Transcript
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:06 Welcome to Smart in the City, the BABLE Podcast. I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu. And really at BABLE, we aim to connect the players in the smart city industry with high quality information and ideas through our platform and services. This podcast is really an extension of this goal and mission to drive the change for a better urban life. First, a quick announcement from Bvo. We are delighted to announce a new interactive online training course, Smarter Connected Places experiential Learning for Tomorrow's Urban Leaders. You can find the link for more information and how to register in the show notes. Make sure to register by the 14th of October for an early bird discount now onto our regular programming.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:56 So yeah, we are visiting a new country on the podcast today, Austria, and specifically Brook Austria. And you probably know it for a bunch of skiing possibilities and the beautiful scenery. But I guess the real question that we're we'll be answering today are what are the actions the city is taking in things like citizen participation and more? So we are sitting here in, uh, the beautiful city of health inbox Sweden for the Urban Future Conference, and I got lucky enough to, uh, sit down with, uh, Elizabeth Madea, who is the head of citizen participation at the City of Innsbrook. Welcome, Elizabeth. Glad to have you on.
Elisabeth Meze 00:01:39 Thank you. It's nice to be here.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:40 Yeah. Thanks also for taking a long journey. I, we were just talking before this, that you took a 18 hour train ride to get here, so, um, applause on that for taking the sustainable way less convenient, I'm sure.
Elisabeth Meze 00:01:55 Um, I had some time to read a book
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:58 Yeah.
Elisabeth Meze 00:01:59 Booking and I made some very nice, uh, contact with people. Oh,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:03 That's good. Yeah, I I also much prefer train travel over plane travel, and of course it's, um, it's a nicer way to do it. So yeah. Thanks for being with us today. And I So are you enjoying the conference so far?
Elisabeth Meze 00:02:18 Yes, I'm trying to, um, participate at any, um, presentation, um, on, on the weight.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:25 Yes. Yeah, that's great. Uh, taking advantage of everything. So I actually saw, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'll start off with a
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:34 Little
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:34 Teaser question to get us warmed up, but I actually
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:37 Saw that you ha also have a podcast.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:40 Is that true? Yes.
Elisabeth Meze 00:02:41 Uh, it's on sustainable housing, sustainable living with heart and soul, and it's especially dedicated to people living in, uh, social housing. Yeah. And I want to fascinate them about, uh, sustainable living and saving money on the other hand, because that's one of the deficiencies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they, uh, they experience in daily life, and we take all kinds of issues on mobility, on, on sustainable food, buying on, on moving house in a sustainable way, reuse up, cycling, whatever. Yeah. Cool. And neighborhood, that's very important because everything, um, which continues in the long run is based on the good neighborhood.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:28 Yeah, yeah, Very true. I was just actually at the Lovable Neighborhoods Conference in London, and we spoke so much about this, these concepts of, of forming these communities around these neighborhoods. And, um, so yeah, very, uh, inspired by all of that talk. The, the podcast is in German, right? Yes. Okay, perfect. But we'll make sure to link it in the show notes so any of our lovely German speakers can also find it there. So, uh, yeah, digging in a bit deeper to you and your work. So I was reading your bio and you know, a bit of information on you and it says you are passionate about encouraging people to turn to less resource consumption lifestyles. How are you encouraging people to do that? And are you having any luck
Elisabeth Meze 00:04:12 <laugh>? Um,
Elisabeth Meze 00:04:13 I'm a former climate change researcher mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, um, it, it made me quite sad that I started to study this in the nineties when it was not a topic yet, and emissions just go up and up and up and up. So something must have, have been wrong with the whole communication so far. So I try to make, um, people change their habits through entertainment, through fun, through fascinating, fascinating them. Yeah. And rather than telling them how bad it might come or that they have to reduce their lifestyle. Yeah. And, um, yeah, it works quite well. Recently I've been invited to a family telling me, we took part at your workshops and excursions to sustainable living, and now look at our furniture. When we moved, we didn't throw the old furniture away. We reused them and, um, repainted them and used them in a different way. So we are saving resources. And, um, in another situation, a woman told me, um, she had psychological problems and moved into a new house and was offered a urban gardening plot. And she was as usually too afraid to start something. And then she met the neighbor in a workshop, uh, of mine who, who was cancer sick. And she, they both ladies joined and decided to make a plot together, and now they're best friends <laugh>. So it's a mixture of sustainable living and good neighborhood, which is the basis for, uh, resource friendly lifestyle.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:56 Yeah. And you know, this concept of sharing resources. Yes. Right. Um, and that, that actually brings us closer to our neighbors and closer to our community. Um, I I find that really interesting. Um, so is there a certain project that you've been working on or that you've worked on in the past that you can explain a bit about that you're passionate about?
Elisabeth Meze 00:06:18 Oh, there are many projects. I'm working parallel. Um, I started now with something called Climate Saloon in Innsbrook. The last two years we developed, or we refurbished the first park in ins towards a climate fit, uh, outdoor area. What does it mean climate fit? This is improving on the green infrastructure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, implementing blue infrastructure so that the park is a kind of cool oasis for people during summer heat. Of course. We also, um, increased the, the general, um, how should I say, the experience in the park all over the year. And we closed down a road, We made another road, um, or changed it towards a bike lane. We increased the lawn size. Uh, so we, we reduced the amount of concrete Yeah. And how should the city communicate that they are retroing p parks and public spaces to the residents. So I thought, Hmm, let's invite some collapse or initiatives to make small events in the Climate saloon to tell people something about sustainable life.
Elisabeth Meze 00:07:43 And when I had the first, first workshop where we gathered ideas, suddenly they came 20 claps. And at the end we have now the whole summer from May to August, about 40 events. Wow. On a small scale. I, I, I consider them as climate saloons, where you have the possibilities to get in touch with people where you have personal communication, everything from bicycle workshops, climate theater, um, reuse workshops, um, repair cafes, uh, panel discussions about sustainable, um, nutrition regional and, and local food. And yeah, it, it is, it's so, so grown, so big and, and, and it attracts thousands of people because it's not only those who participated in event and telling their neighbors and their friends and relative relatives, but each in initiative participating in this park as an event, they have to think in their organization, in their club, in their in Yeah. Society, how they can implement a green event. So it's a multiplying effect, which yeah, it goes out of control in a positive way.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:08:57 Yeah. That's wonderful. That's really inspiring to hear. Um, and so what, I guess also I always want to ask, but what were the challenges, right? So every project has, um, you, it sounds wonderful, but of course there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes. Uh, what, what were the hurdles and how did you overcome them?
Elisabeth Meze 00:09:16 Um, the biggest hurdle was I asked at the university, at the architecture faculty, if they want to build a stage in the park. So 17 students used it as a bachelor project for two semesters to, to develop a stage made out of reuse material. So they had to ask where there are houses turned down to get some material, um, to build it up. And when it finally stood there, we had the discussion with the city authority, where I'm also part of the city. Um, how can we ensure this, is it a stage and what then it needs a special insurance? And what's in the time between events when people sit on this stage, which is, it doesn't look like a normal stage. It's a very, um, creative building. So is it in a public furniture like a bench? It is too big and too special to art.
Elisabeth Meze 00:10:22 Yeah. Artistic. So we had real problems when we started the event series, the climate saloon, we had first to close the whole stage because the lawyers of the city, they couldn't agree on how to ensure this element in the public space. So now we had to post signs on it that you should not enter it, which is a very bad sign to the public. We had a, a chain locking one of the entrances, but you can climb on this stage everywhere. Um, now we, we agreed with the authorities that we can open it and they have found some kind of insurance, but it's still very, yeah, very difficult. Um, not for this, the, the residents, they don't know what's behind the scenery, but I think I used a hundred, 200 males and even more phone calls to find an arrangement <laugh>. Yes. And this the day before the opening.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:21 Oh, no. <laugh>. Yeah, <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. There's always these, um, these things that no one sees. Right. And that's also one thing that I want to highlight when we speak to people like you, that there's a lot that goes behind the scenes. So we should all be understanding and open-minded to how things are developing and yeah, express our opinion, of course, about what you see, but also be mindful that there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. Um, so yeah, I was going to ask you about the climate fit park anyway, so I was very curious, so thanks for telling me about that. Um, and so I also want to ask you, um, in your experience, so how long have you worked in kind of the citizen participation?
Elisabeth Meze 00:12:07 Um, about three and a half years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, um, earlier I worked for a real estate company for the, a public real estate company Okay. For social housing. And there I was the sustainability officer, and I was always involving tenants in various projects of neighborhood creation and team building in a way. And also getting them involved in why we refurbish their houses, uh, towards passive houses. Yeah. I was leading a project in inspo of, of this, um, real estate, um, company called sy, where we managed to retrofit buildings from the 1930s and forties means, um, residential houses and schools to become passive houses. And what I considered as most important, you cannot implement any measures without taking them, involving the tenants or the pupils. So we had a lot of workshops also with pupils explaining them why we suddenly refurbished their schools, um, pupils from between six and 12 years old.
Elisabeth Meze 00:13:24 So we had workshops where they could test different materials of insulation. Um, I took a friend doll house to, to one of the workshops. He had many stations where the children were going around testing things, um, to show them where we should insulate houses on the roof, the walls. Um, yes, one day I even brought snow in May. I had to go very high up, I, I think at three or four in the morning to pick up some snow left in the mountain <laugh> to bring to one of the workshops and letting children, um, dig different types of insulation or different types material into this pot of snow and meher temperature mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just to see how much insulation it's needed to keep things warm. And we, we, we did a lot of things just to let them know why this rational to, um, to retrofit, um, their building.
Elisabeth Meze 00:14:24 And it was so nice. One day I went through a part of the city and, and, um, Turkish boy came to me and had his mom on, on, on his hand and said, Mom, this is our teacher. This is our teacher. She told me our windows are too poor <laugh>, because I showed them also. Um, my colleagues showed them also windows, um, which are three with, with three layers of, of glass. And they also had some, um, um, shadows going down. I you call this, uh, the shades. The shades with pv with portable tag mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, he was very exciting to tell his mom. He learned something and in their home, they had still the old windows. So, um, that's something which makes me very happy that the Yeah, it, it goes through the way on, not only to the purpose, but also to their families.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:15 That's a wonderful story. Thanks for sharing. Um, and so what do you think is the key really to citizen participation, bringing them snow in may? Um, what's the key really to citizen
Elisabeth Meze 00:15:29 Participation you need, Um, in order to transform the society towards, um, less resource consuming society, you need all kinds of senses. You, I apply Montessori, pedagog mm-hmm. <affirmative> to knowledge transfer. As I've worked many years in science as the climate scientist, I, I see the importance, how to communicate what I know to a level fitting not only to a level, but also to a, a situation where people are open minded. Like, for example, I have another project called Driving License for Sustainable Housing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So before people get the key to a new apartment, social housing in the city, uh, about half a year before I start with workshops, excursions, city walks with the future tenants and teach them all about sustainable housing. Like for example, about five years, uh, five months ahead, they must make a decision about what kind of kitchen they have to buy.
Elisabeth Meze 00:16:33 So we discuss what dishwasher, what refrigerator they should buy, if they have to buy a new one after what criteria they should go ahead in the shop. Is it the cheapest one in most cases, Yes. Um, and then I tell them, How long do you think such a machinery lasts? A fridge maybe gets broken after three years, right after their guarantee time. And then you have all thes uhhas of, of removing this old fridge, getting a new one, bringing it up to the third floor, installing it. Why don't you buy one which can be repaired? And why don't you buy one, which over the lifetime has less energy. Um, and I say energy consumption. So at the end you come, it will be cheaper to buy, uh, um, a good high quality equipment for your apartment rather than buying cheap in the beginning and being annoyed short time afterwards. And all these workshops, they also make people think about the new neighbors so they know each other already long time before they move into the new house. And for example, we make discovery walks around their future neighborhood, showing them or, or making, making it tasty for them to use the bike or walk mm-hmm. <affirmative> rather than using the car for going to shops. And I'm sometimes surprised when, when we do such walks in existing neighborhood, how little people actually know their 15 minutes neighborhood.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:10 Yeah. Yeah.
Elisabeth Meze 00:18:12 So, and we bring them to a waste site to talk about, um, um, garbage, um, separation about what they can do to reduce the amount of waste in household, which is already very big when they move in all the package, all the cartoons. Now, how do you call all the
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:33 Yeah, all the packages. The packages, Yeah,
Elisabeth Meze 00:18:35 All packages. Sorry about my English.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:37 Oh, no, please <laugh>. That's excellent. So,
Elisabeth Meze 00:18:41 Uh, yes, this, this workshops, they make people feeling suddenly important and they learn something. Many, many years after school recently I had a, a man, an old man, a Turkish man sitting in my workshop, and I thought he wouldn't understand anything because of language barriers. And after the workshop became to me and said, Next workshop, I bring my three sons, one of them is even my lawyer. They must see the waste side. I think that's so exciting. And then they learn so much about their life, and it, and it made me feeling happy, <laugh>, because I thought he wouldn't, he wouldn't grasp anything I tell them about energy. And suddenly, yes, it made something in his mind thinking about, um, resource consumption.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:30 Wow. That's, that's really inspiring. So yeah, I guess my question now is, um, you seem very optimistic about behavior change, um, in that you, you feel like people are open and willing to change. And of course I also believe that, but I've also seen the other side, right, where it's pulling and pushing people maybe a bit to, um, to not take a car or something along those lines. Do you think, um, just to play a bit of devil's advocate, of course. So do you think it's a losing battle to convince people to use less resources? Or do you, do you truly feel very optimistic about it?
Elisabeth Meze 00:20:10 It's a necessary battle. Yeah. But the last week before the conference, I thought, Mm, I should buy a new trouser. And someone sent me to a, I thought it was a shop, but it was an outlet center, and I had to queue about, yeah. 15 minutes to find a parking square. And then I just left and I didn't buy anything. And I wondered there were thousands of people on a weekend to go to an outlet shop just buying, buying, buying things. Yeah. And I felt so sick, and I was thinking, this is a different class of people actually, um, than I usually address with my workshops. I work with social clients, with people in, in public, um, residential homes. So how can I address the middle class? I mean, not the bob, the ones educated where, who want everything to do, Right? Like sending their children to Montessori school, eating vegan, and at the other side, uh, buying a new iPhone every half a year and, and traveling to, um, Thailand or wherever, <laugh>.
Elisabeth Meze 00:21:18 So this controversial lifestyle, but how to address the middle class who don't want to give up their big c uh, SUVs. Yeah. Uh, this is a hard battle. But, um, usually everybody has one entrance window where I could start a discussion and such a discussion. I had recently, um, a woman telling me, Why do, do you always talk about mobility other base than using a car? I love my car, I love my suv, and I, I don't want to give up. And I had her in an inner city walk showing the neighborhood. And then she told me, I have only one hobby and it's gardening. And I told you, Well, already in the neighborhood, two, two streets away from, yo, they have a nice urban gardening, but there are no parking careers. I said, <laugh>. And then she said, Do you really think I have to take a car when I go gardening? That's a contradiction. I would cycle, of course, <laugh>. And suddenly I had her into thinking about cycling around in the neighborhood.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:22:29 Yeah.
Elisabeth Meze 00:22:30 But the entrance, uh, window was the gardening project. So, and I believe that everyone has such an entrance, but you just have to take time to find it. And that causes, of course, a lot of convincing, a lot of talking, listening, observing until you find the right moment or the right issue.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:22:52 Mm. Yeah. That's, that's a really good thought. Um, and so I guess you touched on this kind of economic lens, um, as well. So I'm wondering, you, you touched on this, these different classes, and I think that this is such a, an eco economic issue as well. Um, so do you think everyone, I guess, can afford to use less resources? Can people, um, is it the upper class that you think is the, the main target so far? You've only, you've mostly been talking about the lower class and, uh, middle class. So what, what views do you have there?
Elisabeth Meze 00:23:32 Um, I think if you look at the income distribution of various countries and compared with the resource use, um, there's of course the highest amount of resource, the highest footprint on those having a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:50 Yeah. And those are the people that might be also hardest to convince, right?
Elisabeth Meze 00:23:54 Yeah. But still, if you go to a harbor in, in Holland and, and you look how many containers of goods are transported around the world with things actually we don't need, then it's actually the big mass of people causing also the big bulk of emissions. So you have to address all sites.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:24:18 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, so do you have any advice for, um, councils or people trying to do something similar to you that want to engage more, that want to convince people more of these, of using less resources? What's your one piece of advice you would
Elisabeth Meze 00:24:37 Give, um, estate companies and property managers when they build houses or when they get new tenants to their existing houses? Um, this driving license for sustainable living is a kind of, um, built environment. Often gets this metal, bronze, silver, gold when they are very high energy efficient built. And I focus on a, on a similar, um, how do you call it? Certification. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of, of residents. So, uh, property manager should also get the certificate, how much effort they put into, um, create, creating a VNS among their tenants or among their residents in sustainable living. I would've got about a hundred thousand euro this week to perform such a project through whole Austria, together with other counties. But the, the politicians in my town, they've refused that I take on this money because we have a green major in a town and they are envious if he would have a successful project. So while the others are allowed to continue with the project that developed, I have to be, I can't participate.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:01 So
Elisabeth Meze 00:26:01 That's very, very sad, making me quite
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:03 Frustrating.
Elisabeth Meze 00:26:04 Frustrating. Yeah. Yeah.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:06 Um, with that note, um, I would like to move on to just a little segment. It's a new segment actually, and it's called Inspire Us.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:17 Inspire us just a little bit with a story, a quote, or anything that has inspired you recently,
Elisabeth Meze 00:26:29 You mean of another person.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:31 Anything you'd like, anything that has inspired you,
Elisabeth Meze 00:26:34 The older you get, the crazier you can become because you have nothing to lose.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:39 <laugh>.
Elisabeth Meze 00:26:40 So I'm experimenting all the time and if not, everything works out, but, uh, I have nothing to lose.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:47 Yeah. <laugh>, that's perfect. Thank you so much. And this is a question now, um, that I ask every single guest cuz it's so interesting to see how people answer it from different perspectives. And it's the question, what is a smart city to you?
Elisabeth Meze 00:27:03 Um, a city can never be smart. It's only the people being smart.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:08 Good, good answer. Um, and very to the point. I love it. Um, so yeah, with that I won't take up too much more of your time. I will let you get to your tea and to the really interesting dialogue and conversations of this. But I just wanna thank you, um, a huge thank you to you, uh, for taking the time, especially first thing in the morning today, um, after a, a long night last night, exploring and learning. Um, so I really appreciate your insights and really look forward to Yeah. Hearing more about your work in the future too. Um, so yeah, thank you so much.
Elisabeth Meze 00:27:43 Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:46 And, uh, to all of our listeners, don't forget, you can always create a free account on bobble smart cities.eu to find out more about smart city projects, solutions, and implementations.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:59 Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
