#1 What better place to start than in Copenhagen?

Rikke Petersen 00:00:00 There should be a little bit more, you know, a structure, how you, how you work with startups as a municipality. There should be a strategy, a vision. Do we want to work with start-ups? Do we want to work with companies and how do we do it in order to solve problems, tech, uh, challenges, et cetera. So, more structure and more strategy about it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:26 Welcome to Smart in the City, the BABLE Podcast, I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu. And really at BABLE, we aim to connect the players in the Smart City industry with high-quality information and ideas through our platform and services. This podcast is really an extension of this goal and mission to drive the change for a better urban life. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:50 So what better place to start than in Copenhagen? Um, while there are many cities progressing quickly in this area, I think we can agree that Copenhagen has a very unique ecosystem and they're really pioneers in many areas, introducing technology and innovation into the fabric of urban life. This month, we are diving into success stories from Denmark and featuring different projects in collaboration with Copenhagen Capacity. So make sure to follow us on LinkedIn, to have a look at these interesting use cases from the region in the last months, I've been travelling to many, many cities and I have personally met with our three guests of today who are important players in the Copenhagen ecosystem, Rikke Petersen, who is the Head of Green Transition Team at Copenhagen Capacity, Anders Sloth Nielsen, who is the Senior Investment Manager and Head of Smart City at Copenhagen Capacity and Martin Reinhold Kildeby, who is the Head of Strategic Partnerships at BLOXHUB. Hi, how are you doing today? Rikke Petersen 00:01:58 Hi, Tamlyn. Doing fine. How are you? Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:01 <laugh> yeah, I do quite well. Thanks for joining us Rikke. And Anders how are you doing today? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:02:09 Good. Very well. And thanks so much for, for having us. We've been looking forward to it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:14 Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for joining us. Um, hi Martine. Welcome to the show. Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:02:20 Hello Tamlyn. Thank you very much. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:22 So let's start question for the three of you. I'm gonna start with you Martine. If BLOXHUB were an animal, which animal would it be? Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:02:33 I think BLOXHUB would definitely be like, uh, 12 legged, uh, octopus or something like that. <laugh> reaching out to every corn, know the world, all being centered in some, uh, big brain and body. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:50 Ah, that's a really nice answer. Um, I'm not sure if 12 legged octo- octopi exists. I Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:02:57 Me neither <laugh>, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:58 But that's a, they're really intelligent animals too. So, um, good, good choice. Um, yeah. Perfect. Now I'm going to ask Anders if Copenhagen Capacity were an animal, which animal would it be? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:03:13 I don't know. I'll, I'll say a lion. If it, if it also comes down to Copenhagen Capacity, you know, we, we have a very proactive organization and, and we, we, we, uh, we help foreign companies come here and establish themselves and, and attract the foreign investments, uh, and that really takes, uh, a certain amount of productivity in your daily work. So, um, and I think, I think Copenhagen as a, as a city, it's also very, um, proactive and I think a lion has to be that there in order to feed the family or whatever, they call it, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:44 Yeah, king of the jungle, safari or something. Yeah. Do you have, uh, do you agree Rikke, or do you have a different animal in mind? Rikke Petersen 00:03:53 I do actually. And, uh, we actually did kind of the same exercise a couple of years ago at CopCabin and we ended up, and I totally still find this animal appropriate for the city and for, for Cophengen Capacity still. And that was a dolphin, you know, we are smart, we like to, we are fast, we have fun. Um, we like the, we, we like to be in the water, close to the water. Uh, we like to, uh, to work in teams and, uh, to be around others. And so, so that was, uh, the animal we, we went for that time and I, I still think it is, uh, appropriate. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:04:30 Yeah. Thanks. <laugh> thanks so much for playing along now. Let's dig in a bit deeper. So why don't you tell me a little bit more about Copenhagen Capacity and BLOXHUB? Rikke Petersen 00:04:44 Yes, I'll be pleased to my, so my name is Rikke Petersen. I am, uh, the team leader of, uh, the green transition team at Copenhagen Capacity. We are an investment promotion agency working, uh, in, uh, to promote, uh, greater Copenhagen, uh, mainly the capital the ends, but also other regions around Copenhagen. My aim is to, um, to attract businesses or the focus I have is on the built environment. So I would, um, um, I would love to see a lot of, uh, solutions and technologies and companies that are enhancing the green transition within and build environments that could be everything from technology companies, uh, to engineers, architects. Um, so that is what I'm basically aiming for in my current position. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:36 Lovely. Thank you so much. Anders? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:05:40 Yes, and, uh, um, I'm, uh, part of the team here at Copenhagen Capacity and, uh, uh, sitting the same team as, as like our green transition team. I said as, uh, head of smart city technologies and solutions. So, so my focus is, uh, very much focusing on companies who have, you know, a smart city technology that, uh, is relevant for greater Copenhagen and supporting, uh, the overall, uh, green transition and urban developments, uh, through deploying that technology, but really about track foreign companies and foreign investors, uh, into the ecosystem here. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:21 Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks for the introduction. Uh, Martine, can, can you just sum up a bit, what is, what do you do here at BLOXHUB and what is your main goal? Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:06:31 Well, BLOXHUB is, as I said, it's both a physical place. Uh, you would maybe look at it and think it's a coworking place. And it is, we have residents sitting here working, uh, every day we have around thousand people coming in and out every day, all working within the urban development somehow. Um, but it's much more than that. You know, it's actually, um, a platform, an organization that, uh, linking people, uh, getting people to share innovation and ideas, and the whole idea, the aim, uh, and purpose of block up is to scale these solutions, creating better cities worldwide. So that is really like the whole idea of the organizations. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:07:16 Yeah. Wonderful collaborating to gather, even in the physical setting can bring people so much closer and really get people talking and working towards these solutions together. So, um, and can you tell us a bit about the most important aspects of the Copenhagen ecosystem, Anders? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:07:34 Yeah, so, I mean, we, I think when it comes to the ecosystem system as a whole, I think we, we're very fortunate to have, um, rather flat hierarchical, uh, structure here. So it means that the ecosystems are being built on a very open-minded approach, but we've been very, very good at the implementing, uh, certain living laps, uh, meaning these, um, you know, sort of lapses or, or real life, uh, places in cities where companies can come and, um, and, and test out their technologies together in, in public-private partnerships. Um, you may heard of, of some of them, but we have, we have the Copenhagen solutions lap that is sort of part of them, the city of Copenhagen and is responsible for, for many, uh, smart city, uh, pilots and, uh, and tests. Uh, but then you also have the the doll, uh, living lap, which is, uh, um, which is, um, Europe's largest living, living lab for, for smart city and outdoor lighting technologies. So, so, so we've been very good at, I think creating, you know, the ecosystems where there's room for testing your solutions and collaborations with the, uh, the public, uh, uh, the public as well, such as municipalities. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:09:11 Yeah. Thank you. Um, and so what would be kind of your piece of advice to companies who are maybe looking to do at work so common tests, their technologies in the living labs work, um, in the greater, uh, Copenhagen area? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:09:27 Yeah. My advice for, for, for companies who have an interest in utilizing these living labs, I think it actually starts, uh, some sort of, of commitment because it's, you know, it's great to be able to, to, to test out your solution and, but, and in, in a sort of in a pilot phase, but at some point, um, you also need to think about, well, how do we move on from here? So, so being able to sort of commits to that investment of being part of a living lab and, and think about, well, how can we grow from here at a, at an early stage and have that dialogue going is, is probably my, my best advice. So it doesn't just end up being, a pilot or a test in a living lab. And then, then that's it because that can also be, uh, a very sad story for a company. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:10:20 Yeah, that's very true. I think one of the things that we see a lot at BABLE is really a lot of pilots and then really looking at how can we, how can we really take this and scale up from there? So I think that's a really, uh, a really great point that you raise. Rikke, did you have anything to add to that? Rikke Petersen 00:10:38 Yeah, but I think as, and you can also add that, um, of course, it's a risk for a company to go into another market and to do pilots and, and, and it just takes some, some money and some efforts, but that's where we see that we have an advantage because it's, it's, it's also very simple and very easy to open up in business. It's, uh, not that expensive and, and it's not a big risk basically, so you can open and you can scale up and you can scale down. So this is why we are on the top of the rankings for being the most, the Countrys easiest to do business. So, um, I think, uh, because you just see that the companies are really, um, taking this step and getting engaged and are here on a daily basis since they just getting more embraced from the whole ecosystem. And also if you want to, to be a part if you want to be a part of a public-private partnership, you simply have to be here on a daily basis. And, and therefore, it's, it's good to see that it's, that we can actually offer the companies very easy rules and very easy ways of, of, of, of, of setting up this business, um, here in the region. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:52 Yeah, that's great. And I think, uh, organizations like yours really, really do help young companies especially find their place in certain cities. So it's really great to work that you do. Um, and for all three of you, do you have any success stories you'd like to share? Uh, Martine? Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:12:12 Yeah. We have many kind of stories that I could really tell because we activate our members of the organizations in so many ways. And it's, it's all about, as I said, collaboration and making partnerships to create progress really and impact towards a better that a city really, um, both here in Copenhagen, of course, but actually just as much internationally. So we really also want to bring, uh, solutions out there and implement them in other cities around the world. So we have, we have like local, uh, stories that I could tell where some of our members have gone together also with academia to create solutions that I actually like physical solutions that you can, uh, you can use in a setting where you want to measure the indoor climate. For example, the air bird is, is a good example. That's like a physical solution that came out of a collaboration. Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:13:10 And, um, then we also have a, a lot of internationally where we work closely with cities and companies abroad. And, um, yeah, we have great, uh, stories to tell about collaborations in, for example, New York, where we have been working with, uh, the Bernard campus. They, uh, worked with, with our team here to involve our members to create the first circular, uh, campus worldwide. Wow. So, um, this is, uh, this is a great case that, that we like to mention. And, um, I personally also work a lot with German cities to, uh, inspire them and to learn from them as well, and to have this, uh, cross border collaboration really in order to really strengthen, uh, both the process, but also the speed that we want to upgrade our cities with. So, yeah, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:14:07 Wonderful. And if a city is listening and wants to know how they can collaborate with you, what would you say? Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:14:14 Please send me an email. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:14:15 Perfect. Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:14:16 Because, um, I'm in contact with, with many cities worldwide and, um, we always look into the specific case. Uh, what are you looking into? What challenges do you have and how can we like, um, look at the challenge together and find out what is the best one next steps in regard to finding both, uh, future proof, but also very holistic solution, of course, sustainable solution. Yeah. Um, and, uh, then we will involve experts, um, from our network that, that can support the further process of finding the right way forward. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:14:53 Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks. Uh, Rikke? Rikke Petersen 00:14:58 Well, there two things, um, that I would like to share in this, uh, regard, and one is, uh, the latest success that, um, we had success is like, uh, when a company established in, in the region and in greater cope hay, and we recently assisted and supported, um, a German startup called, uh, Gorillaz. Uh, they started up in Copenhagen, and they deliver groceries within 10 minutes. So you can literally go to your, uh, phone and, and, and start and open the app. And you can then within 10 minutes have you to, like home, they, it's just brilliant and they deliver with an e-bike. So it's just, uh, a good, um, a good, uh, solution for COVID making a green solution. And that is actually what we aiming for. And, um, and the other thing is that we, and, and you are a part of that as well. Rikke Petersen 00:15:48 This German, uh, Dan is collaboration, or also like Hamburg Copenhagen collaboration that we are experiencing at the moment. There's something about this, um, um, that cities want to work together and, uh, to make partnerships and to, you know, promote themselves to what, uh, investors and companies from abroad or from overseas. And, uh, that we, we are kind of a mega re region region. And, and, and I just think that this collaboration has a lot of potentials, uh, going, looking on what's also for, for attracting even more, uh, sustainable and smart and, and brilliant, uh, companies too, too, to, to the Northern part of your, and to, to, to greater Copenhagen. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:16:34 Yeah, those are, those are great examples, I think. And I actually Gorillaz we use it at our Stuttgart office as well. So we, we order all of our, um, fun drinks shall I say, and any, any other supplies that we need, um, all through them. So it's, it's been a big game-changer for us, um, to have them. So yeah, you can sh share that also with them that you that's, that's good to hear <laugh>. Yeah. And it's also been a pleasure to be part more, uh, working in this Danish, German collaboration as well. I think it's super important when we think about, um, this cross border collaboration and really what, what we can share with each other, the lessons learned, and, um, I've really been enjoying that as well. And I hope too, yeah. Be more of a part of it in the future as well. So, and then did, uh, Anders do you also have a success story to share? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:17:23 Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think we, we see a lot of, um, a lot of interest coming from also the investment space for investors looking into investing here in the ecosystem and also Danish companies. Um, one of them, the cases that we've, we, we, we consider our success, uh, this past year is, um, uh, an early-stage VC fund called Adler, which is, uh, very much present all around the world, but, but, um, they basically established a, a presence and an office here actually at blocks up, um, to invest in, in between 10 to 20, uh, green tech companies, uh, every year here, uh, and also between 70, 70 to 100, uh, individuals who have great, great, uh, ideas in, in the sort of Greentech, uh, space. Uh, so we see a lot of, um, excitement and enthusiasm about investing in, uh, potential technologies and solutions, uh, herein, in Denmark. And, uh, and that's super exciting. I think that's, uh, that's really a great success and it shows that we have quite a, a unique ecosystem. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:34 Yeah, it, it really is. And, um, I guess also to go with that, I, I hear a lot from companies as well. Um, they obviously struggle new companies. They're struggling with finding investment. Um, do you have any advice on that? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:18:47 Yeah, I think, I mean, there's actually, <affirmative>, it's, it's, it's all about, well, first of all, trying to assess what kind of money do you need, because I would say there's, there's a lot of different sources out there, both private and public funding. So I think, it starts with that, but that's also something we, we help with to sort of giving that overview. But I think especially may be coming from, from, from the outside, wanting to maybe start up, uh, your business here or get an investment that allows you to, to implement certain projects, uh, or, or scale your business, then it's important to look at, um, both the public and the private side. Um, I think, you know, the sort of Danish way of doing business, the mentality is we, we have quite a flat hierarchical structure, so you can, you can, you can, you know, people are willing to speak with you as long as you have a, a great idea, but, um, it's, it's, it's really about understanding landscape and maybe not only, only focus on, on private, uh, private capital coming from BC funds, but maybe also taking the public into consideration. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:20:02 Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And, um, yeah, I never know what to, it's not my area of expertise. So, you know, sometimes actually companies will come to me and be at asking about these things and I can kind of point them in different directions, but I really have no, um, good advice to give. So, um, thank you also for that. I, I can sound a bit more intelligent now when they ask me, so yeah. Um, Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:20:24 I can, I can share very short story if you want me to. Cause we actually have, a Swedish company. They called trick, uh, solutions. They were part of the urban tech accelerator program at, uh, over, which was run in, in blocks up as well. And, and, uh, you know, when that accelerator finished, they had to look towards other sources of funding to keep on going and yeah, and, and they've applied for certain public funds in Denmark, uh, which they've been eligible to do, uh, through sort of setting up a business here. Um, so, you know, that's, that's how we support and help also. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:01 Yeah. That's, that's, uh, that's a good story to share. And I think hopefully, some companies can find a little inspiration in that as well. Um, now maybe to counterbalance a little bit, these frontline success stories you have been sharing with us, we also have a segment, we call mess up stories. We don't wanna call them failures, but yeah, if you have any, you know, maybe lessons learned or any, uh, mess up stories, uh, really from the past that you can talk about today, that would be great. Martine? Martine Reinhold Kildeby 00:21:35 Yeah. It's, it's funny when, when you say failures and, uh, you know, in, I think in, in some of the culture that we also bring with us abroad when we collaborate is, uh, the culture of making earlier and we maybe even won't regard it as a failure, really just, uh, try an error really. Um, you have to, we can't wait to have the perfect solution. So actually we need to try out new things all the time, see, do they work or do they not work which way to go forward? So of course we all the time have like, um, challenges, uh, with, for example, working with we've been working with Latin America. They of course have big challenges in regard to getting an overview of where to start when they want to improve their cities. And, um, sometimes, you know, even if you have the technical solutions, you need to have involvement of people to a lot higher degree than expected and maybe the other way around really. So there's, there are challenges all the time. So sometimes we move forward quickly and sometimes it's a bit slower, but that's has nothing to do with failure. Just the trial and a Tamlyn Shimizu 00:22:50 Yeah. Yeah. I like how you put that a lot. That's, that's a wonderful way to put it. Um, Rikke, do you have any mess up stories you'd like to share with us today? Rikke Petersen 00:23:00 If I'd see that in a, in a business perspective, I would, uh, I would say that the worst thing that can happen to us is, is if, uh, a company which used to go somewhere. I mean, we are constantly in, in, in, in competition with other cities and, uh, if we lose it, it's a tough thing. And there are some cities that are really are tough and that are good competitors, uh, for many reasons and, and, you know, Stockholm and Amsterdam and, and Hamburg are around. So, uh, and we do some fat times, uh, lose the game <laugh>, uh, towards the cities. Um, and then, there, there are different reasons for that. And, uh, some of the other cities are very good at, you know, helping with funding or even giving funding or give certain extras. So, yeah, but that's just a part of the game. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:50 Yeah. And I, I can imagine that the cities are quite an in competition, but then we want them to, you know, we also want them to collaborate more. So how do we, how do we balance that? Is it good to be in competition with each other, for these things? Or do you wish that there was more, uh, collaborating, I guess? Rikke Petersen 00:24:12 Mm. It depends on, on, on, on the solutions, right. I, I mean, we do also work very closely together with, uh, Scona with the Southern part of Sweden. And, and this is also sometimes, you know, two different countries. It's the same region. It's a, it's a R AA collaboration region, you can say, but still it is, you know, we are, we are funded by Danny's tax money. So if a case goes to, to Sweden, you know, it's, it's also a little bit difficult, but what we see this as a great business region, and then it doesn't would have benefits from a company establishing in, in the Southern part of Sweden as well. So I, I think we have to, you know, just face the fact that a company even based in, in Hamburg can have an effect on, uh, business in, in the Nordic or they end the business out of Hamburg, or even, you know, what's going on in Amster. I, in, in, in, you know, circle Constructionism, sustainable construction can happen, uh, even an effect in, in Copenhagen, because there are so many similarities between the two cities and a lot of Dutch companies here and a lot vice versa. So, yeah, it it's, um, it's collaboration, but it's also companies, but yeah, it's both, you can say. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:25:30 Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And Anders, do you have, a mess-up story to share? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:25:36 Um, no, I'm, I'm, I'm way too new in this job to, to have any <laugh>. No, it's, uh, I mean, I, you know, thinking about it, the, uh, this, Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:25:51 I wanna say alignment of expectations and the timing is very, very important because you can see that if we take the sort of EV electric vehicle and, uh, building up an infrastructure for charging stations, that whole space is, is obviously very interesting. The timing of tapping into that space in Copenhagen and Denmark now is much, is much better than it was say even a year ago. Yeah. There's been a lot of rules and even as late as, as last or in October, so a bit more than a month ago, municipality, so can also, sorry, municipality. So can also co-finance, uh, you know, um, operators want to, um, install or, um, uh, charting stations. So, so it's important to be aware of, the timing. Uh, but in another context, say I would've helped a company a year and a half ago that operates in the EV space, then that may, would've been a bad timing and a bit of a messed up or a mess-up sort situation, as opposed to now. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:02 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, um, I think the timing for, I mean, I think it's one of the main determinant factors also of success, right. Is the timing aspect. And, um, I guess, do you ever have to kind of tell companies, Hey, it's not the right time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:27:22 I think we prefer to, to, to try to create the right timing. I mean, I don't, I don't want to say that we exclude anyone on that matter. I think we are, we are the belief that, that is, if a company's genuinely interested in, in coming here, or if they have an interest in exploring business opportunities here, then we also believe that we can help them. Um, cuz that's also, I believe that's also part of our job to sort of not, or, or at least, uh, you know, be in touch and in dialogue with, with the stakeholders here in the ecosystem to find out, you know, where are we terms of, of the timing and the, if we are not fully there, well then how can we take it in small steps if this company really wants to come here now and sort of building that business case, cuz you also have the example of, um, you know, you know, building a business and doing business can also take time, take time to land the right projects and so forth, get the right team, understand the culture. So it's really also about understanding your business journey and, and how you can save if the timing for certain projects is in one year time. Well, well what can you focus on now if you come here so that you actually are in one year time for that. So, so, so we like to try to, to create the timing I would say. Yeah, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:54 Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. So the next question I have for you all today is going to be a question that we ask every single guest that we have on here and I'm really interested to hear everyone's thoughts. So it is to you, what is a Smart City? Martine? Martine Renhold Kildeby 00:29:15 Yeah, that's, that's actually a good question because the definition is different in every, any country. Yeah. Or in every country, it it's really different. So it's important. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:24 And in every city Martine Renhold Kildeby 00:29:25 Exactly. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:26 To every person, really, Martine Renhold Kildeby 00:29:28 It is definitely. And I think in some countries it's more tech focus than in other countries, but in my opinion, uh, a smart city is a city where I can live without any, um, hurdles in my everyday life and that it fulfils my desires and uh, needs Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:49 Yeah. Wonderfully summed up. Thank you. Um, Anders, what about you, do you disagree? Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:29:56 No. I mean, I think it's really about putting people first before the technology is self. Yeah. Um, and try to be smart about it, making sure it makes a real impact in, in society. I think that's the most important thing. And then I think, and that's something we've discussed lately as well is to, to make sure that smart city technology, uh, put into the context of the overall green transition. So how can smart city technologies actually support the green transition, in cities in particular? Um, yeah, but definitely putting people first and, and then looking at what are the real needs and then, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:30:42 And then if the technology fits don't force it to fit, but make, make it actually fit what the needs are. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's super important. Yeah. Um, Rikke, do you have a, a, a different, uh, answer for anything you want to emphasize in a couple of sentences? Rikke Petersen 00:30:58 Well, I, I totally agree with Anders and uh, yeah, I it's, it's about the citizens and, and, and the people, but, uh, yeah, but it, it is also to, um, you know, embrace technologies because I think if we really want, and that's what we wanna want, and that is, uh, the, uh, the, the target of, and what we are aiming for too, to become as well. We need technology. We cannot be circle without technologies in, in buildings, in, in cities and in everywhere we need that one to become successful if we wanna be circle, if we want to have circle societies. So yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:31:38 Yeah. I, I completely agree. <laugh> thank you for all your answers and thank you for taking the time to talk to me today about the beautiful city of Copenhagen. I'm really happy to be here and telling me all about the Smart City ecosystem. Thank Anders Sloth Nielsen 00:31:54 You. Thank you very much time for inviting us. It was a pleasure. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:31:58 Absolutely. Yeah, it was, uh, it was really nice. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate it. And to all of our listeners, if you want to learn more about use cases from Danish cities and companies, you can find more info on BABLE and be part of our community and you can make a free account at www.bable-smartcities.eu. You can also follow us on LinkedIn to follow about the Danish month that we're doing and to read more about what's happening in Denmark. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.