#9 Light Bureau & Gladsaxe Municipality: "Sharing the Night"

Episode 9 June 15, 2022 00:38:36
#9 Light Bureau & Gladsaxe Municipality: "Sharing the Night"
Smart in the City – The BABLE Podcast
#9 Light Bureau & Gladsaxe Municipality: "Sharing the Night"

Jun 15 2022 | 00:38:36


Hosted By

Tamlyn Shimizu

Show Notes

Today our journey leads us to the Municipality of Gladsaxe in Denmark, where the lighting design practice Light Bureau has implemented a red Bat-Friendly LED Street Lighting along an important traffic artery, and all for the sake of bats!

We welcomed Rune Brandt Hermannsson, Visualizer and Designer at Light BureauPhilip Jelvard, Lighting Designer and VR Specialist at Light Bureau and Jonas Jørgensen, Project Manager of traffic and facilities at Gladsaxe to discuss this project.

Overview of the episode:

04:50 - Teaser: If the lights were a different colour than red, what colour would they be?

11:15 - What was the public reception of the project?

13:50 - How will light interact with biodiversity in the future?

15:25 - Are red lights as safe for pedestrians and cyclists as a white light might be?

19:30 - What are the next steps after this pilot?

26:20 - Trial and Error: What went wrong? What mistakes were made along the way, and more importantly, what lessons were learned?

32:00 - Ending Question: To you, what is a Smart City?


Liked our show? Remember to rate it! Want to join us for an episode? Contact our host Tamlyn Shimizu.

And for more insights, join our Smart City Community!

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Episode Transcript

Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:00:00 The red light, uh, biologically doesn't affect our night vision as much as the white light does. So actually, when you are walking or biking through the project, you can see, uh, the surroundings and the night sky, a little better, which is kind of a nice, nice side effect. The red light. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:23 Welcome to Smart in the City - The BABLE Podcast, I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu. And really at BABLE, we aim to connect the players in the smart city industry with high-quality information and ideas through our platform and services. This podcast is really an extension of this goal and mission to drive the change for a better urban life. And first, a quick announcement from BABLE. As a company dedicated to driving the change for a better future. We at BABLE express our support for all victims of the Ukrainian-Russian war. To all our listeners, if you're wondering how to best support Ukraine from a foreign country, please visit the following website: supportukrainenow.org. And now onto our episode. So today we are going on a little journey to a municipality outside of Copenhagen called Gladsaxe. And there a new red vision of how lighting interacts with humans is being piloted and all for the sake of bats. Um, so hopefully that leaves you a bit intrigued as to, uh, as it, as it also did for me. So first of all, with me today is Jonas Jørgensen, who is a project manager in infrastructure projects at glads and municipality. Welcome Jonas. Jonas Jørgensen 00:01:51 Thank you. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:51 <laugh>. Yeah. So can you give me, a brief introduction and your role? Jonas Jørgensen 00:01:56 Yes. Um, in, in this project we had, uh, in the municipality, we had a project where we needed to renovate all the lights, um, to a less energy conception, light bulb, I would say. But, um, we had this special area that's considered rural area where the laws are a little bit different, so we could do something else. And I had hired light bureau, uh, as a consultant. So that's how the whole project started. Uh, cool. I contacted them and said, let's do something here Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:29 That easy! Jonas Jørgensen 00:02:31 No, because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew we could, we could with within city, city borders, there are some other rules, they know much more about that, but outside this rural area, there's a, a little more wiggle room I would say. So I just knew we could do something. I didn't know what <laugh>. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for the little introduction. Um, also to introduce you to Philip Jelvard, who is a lighting designer at Light Bureau, um, and Rune Brandt Hermannsson, who is a senior visualizer and designer at Light Bureau. Yeah. Welcome, Philip. Philip Jelvard 00:03:07 Thank you. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:08 Welcome Rune. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:03:09 Thank you very much. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:11 <laugh> yeah. Thanks so much for being here with me today. Um, so Rune, maybe you could give a brief overview of what Light Bureau really does as a, as an organization. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:03:23 Well, we are a lighting consultancy company, so, uh, we advise our customers on, uh, what, like to put up, uh, where, and, uh, to the end of the project in GGL, we tried to be, uh, forward looking consultants on how to do light. That is more in tune to how the nature around the lighting, uh, solution, uh, is geared, um, for the first time. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:52 Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Um, and, uh, Philip, maybe you can give us also a short introduction into the project that we're speaking about a bit extend extension off of what Jonas said. Philip Jelvard 00:04:02 Sure. Like, uh, for us, this was, I guess, just as Jonas said, like this is, uh, we didn't necessarily knew what to do as well, but, but at least I think we had the specialties in house to, to at least go in and, and be as, um, ambitious as, as, um, as sax to, to really try to figure out how we could do this, this best. So, so for us, this was a complete new thing. Uh, and I think we have tried to solve it in, in the best way we know how, at least considering the, the context and stuff. Um, so really exciting project. Um, yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:04:41 Yeah. I'm excited to dig in a bit deeper with you all, but I think to, uh, start us off, I'll start with, with a, a short teaser. Um, and, uh, that will be all three of you have to answer at the same time. Okay. Um, if the lights were a different color than red, what color would they be? And just say that all at the same time, and then I will ask you why Philip Jelvard 00:05:06 All, all at the same time? Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:08 All at the same time. Philip Jelvard 00:05:09 Do we get a countdown? Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:10 Yeah. Okay. Ready? Mm-hmm <affirmative> 3, 2, 1, All 00:05:15 <unintelligible> <laugh> Jonas Jørgensen 00:05:18 White. I said white. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:20 All right. But why, Jonas Jørgensen 00:05:22 But that's because I, they have a whole other viewing of how they see light and the, and <laugh>, and, and for me, I'm not an expert. That's why I hired them. So for me, when I look at the street, I see white, white light, yellow light, and red light. That's like, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:38 <laugh> Jonas Jørgensen 00:05:39 So, so that's, that's probably what, it would've been, not white necessarily, but it would've been in that Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:46 In a normal, traditional light Jonas Jørgensen 00:05:48 So yeah, that's what, that's just what I call white. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:51 <laugh>. Yeah. Perfect. And Philip, I believe you said orange. Philip Jelvard 00:05:54 I said <danish word> Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:56 What does that mean? Philip Jelvard 00:05:57 <laugh> we wouldn't have any Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:59 Oh, okay. Philip Jelvard 00:06:01 In a perfect scenario. Yes. We wouldn't have any, but, but there are some traffic things that, that, that are part of the project while, so we considered all for a second, but we, we, we couldn't do it because there's a lot of, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:14 Yeah, yeah. Philip Jelvard 00:06:15 So that, that wasn't an option. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:18 Good. And, uh, Rune, you said, Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:06:20 I said purple because that would be as close to red as we could get without Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:24 Purple. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:06:25 Yeah. But I mean, actually we, we, we need the red wavelength, the, the very long wavelength, uh, and we need a narrow band wavelength, uh, to be as, as cautious as we can with the light, uh, in order to protect the bats or, um, have the least impact on them. So, I mean, actually I agree completely with Philip it's red or it's off, if we have to fulfill, uh, the assignment that the customers gave us. Uh, Philip Jelvard 00:06:54 Yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:55 Then purple <laugh>. All right. Perfect. Thank you so much. Um, and then, so now getting a bit more into, uh, a bit deeper into the project. I'm sure people want to know really, I, I think you touched on it on how the project really started, but maybe one of you wants to, um, maybe, maybe onus, um, you want to talk about how it, how it really began. Jonas Jørgensen 00:07:19 Yeah, it it's, it's, it's, it's a small project, I would say within a larger project. Uh, we had, we had a large amount of money to renovate the existing, uh, light, and it was very important for the politician to point out that this was not an architectural project. We, we weren't redesigning or anything. It was just to, uh, change the, I would say light bulb, but it probably has another name, uh, to a less energy consuming product. L E D lighting, that's where it started. Um, and then I noticed we had this special rural area where we could do things a little bit different. Um, I didn't know what or how, or <laugh> we, we had these old, uh, wooden mass who were they, they cause a fortune in maintenance for, so, so we knew that, um, we could change those and, and do something completely different. Jonas Jørgensen 00:08:14 And we have a very, I would say we have some UN sustainable goals that we have applied to the municipality. And I thought, instead of just talking about them, let's see what we actually could do. Um, so I think it was like, so the, one of your colleagues, I, he was the person I worked with when we were designing the contract for this assignment, uh, and this bad project. Uh, and I said to him, let's do something and we, we didn't call it bad project there. We just call it the special project. And then when we dug in a little deeper and talked to some of the other departments in the municipality, and you talk to a lot of experts on pointing at Philip <laugh>. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:08:59 Yeah. Thank you for, Jonas Jørgensen 00:09:01 They can't see us. Yeah. Um, then, then we could make it a little more concrete. And then we knew, okay, we got beds out here. So we had nature animals, but we also had traffic safeties. Uh, there's still a lot of people visiting. So we had some intersections and I would say all of those combined, we, we, we were looking at, as I can understand quite a unique project, you, we, we didn't have any reference points or anything, so I'm glad it worked out how it did, but I'm also a little bit glad it wasn't me who <laugh> had to decide Tamlyn Shimizu 00:09:34 Doing it together helps. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so has this been done before? So is it, is it a brand new concept or have you seen it before? Jonas Jørgensen 00:09:44 I think you are more right to answer, answer that. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:09:46 Yeah. This is Philip. Philip Jelvard 00:09:47 I, I think when we started looking into sort of, kind of solutions that we, we could implement out in sax, so we looked at like, what, how do we, how do research, or how do like other places in the world tackle these sort of issues? And, and we came across like, not, not a lot of research, but some, some very good research at least that, that had been done that could sort of guide the way through. So at least we try to, um, as, as close as, uh, as, as we could stick to that sort of research, but we also found, let's say other solutions around the world using sort of red light in an urban context. Whereas when we looked at it could see some, something that we wouldn't have done. Like we were talking highlight poles very on, on like directed light, just everything would be red just for the sake of making it red. Philip Jelvard 00:10:37 So it was like, yeah, you can, you can use as much light as you want, just as long as it's red, which we, we didn't at all wanted to do. Like, we wanted to put the light where we meant it was needed and still make it red. Um, so I don't think there's any like reference projects, at least within Denmark that, that I have heard of. I think it's, it's more Southern Europe, maybe the Netherlands, uh, Irelands they're, they're, they're pretty far in like the whole UK area, but, but not to my knowledge, I think that, that we've seen anything around here in that sort of sense. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:14 Yeah. Very unique. Um, and, uh, so maybe you can talk a bit about, uh, really the public reception of this from anyone's viewpoint. Um, obviously when you say red lights, so, you know, you've built, uh, an area with red lights, it takes some time to get used to, and it's also has some associations, right. Have you heard it referred to as a red light district and things along these lines? Jonas Jørgensen 00:11:39 Not by the users. Uh, but, but, uh, within our department we have, yeah. Made a little bit fun of it called it. <laugh> sorry, but porn light <laugh>. Yeah, but, but, um, no, no, we, we haven't from, from I'm the one getting all the complaints. If there are any here, that's, that's the good thing about being a consultant, but we haven't actually, it was exceptionally well received. Um, and only thing I had one person who called and said, and it was a certain light. He called and said, it's a little bit too bright, but it, but it had nothing to do with the project. But people, if, if you just, if you just explain it and take the time to tell what is it that, that we are doing and why are we doing it? They understand they, they, they, they think it's a good cause. And, and, and we, when we emphasize that, that we don't compromise traffic safety, so they're not gonna feel a different or shouldn't feel a different then, then they are right with us taking, uh, all the other aspects, nature into consideration. So, so it's been quite popular. And a lot of, I would say, speaking of other, an insane amount of other municipal and consultancy have called me and asked if I could give them information about the project and they wanna do something similar. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:07 Oh, nice. So there's been a lot of also collaboration with other municipalities looking to Jonas Jørgensen 00:13:12 The same. Yeah. But I would say it's, I, I can see it as an eye opener for other, uh, projects, uh, as, as, but as field once wrote to me, uh, this is a project designed for gloves. So you just can't copy it one to one to another part, but it's still, the idea is there and the concept is there, but you need to implement it locally, but, but it has been an eye opener for a lot of other community policies. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:38 Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. It's also quite interesting, um, to think in the relation of how we interact with nature, of course, this is a big goal of it, right. To protect the biodiversity of the area. Um, maybe Rune, maybe you can speak a bit more on, on this side of things on, um, how you see, you know, light interacting with, uh, biodiversity in the future. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:14:02 Yeah. Well, let's go back to Phillip's answer to what light we should have put up there, which was none. Uh, and, and I mean, it has been an eyeopener for both of us to do the research we've been doing the past couple of years, that, that, I mean, basically what we are doing is wrong and we should stop doing it, uh, from a nature perspective, because all light you put up is, is interfering with, with some natural rhythms. Uh, on the other hand, there's no doubt that, uh, we, as humanity has benefited enormously from being able to put up light at night. And, and, and I think like a project is one of the first examples of attempting to strike a balance between needs for humans and, and for nature. Uh, and as <inaudible>, this project is very specifically made for this location and this, and we are taking the bats into considerations there, the guys we are trying to save here, had it been migratory birds, we would have maybe chosen, chosen another color or have the lights on and off at specific times of year. So, I mean, it's very much about analyzing, uh, and doing exactly what this need is, where it's needed, uh, and putting up the right lives. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:19 Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, and Jonas you touched on this a bit, but really the safety aspect, right. Is it, would you also it's as safe, um, for the pedestrians, for the cyclists as, uh, a white light might be, Jonas Jørgensen 00:15:35 Um, I don't think we have any right answers. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because it's, it's, it's how people, I, I would say it's a feeling that's personal for everybody, but I know feeling woman has looked into how the, is the science out there still visible. Uh, so, so those aspects, we can say, yes, it should not be a problem, but how cyclists feel about it, that that's individual, and it's gonna be hard to measure. Um, but I, I, I, I would say we are a little bit lucky because the, the it's it's designed on a road where the policy stops at one point and the next part of the road is another municipality, and they don't have any light. So no matter what I would say, we, we are better than them. So <laugh>, they will always feel that when, when they arrive at <inaudible>, they, they it's, it's better. So, so I think that's a little bit lo we were lucky to implement it in that way. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so, but had, had it been in a completely traditional lighting area where we suddenly turned down reaction could have been different, but I, I I'm gonna say no, there's enough light to not compromise with traffic safety. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:16:53 Yeah. Philip, do you agree with that? Philip Jelvard 00:16:57 Yeah. Uh, definitely what, what you want is saying it's, this is different, you know, like you're not used to biking through an area Litz in such a vibrant red, but, but I also hope that that's like when, when people bike through there and they see that maybe they're a bit more cautious because we have fast moving traffic coming on and off, uh, the highway, uh, we have, uh, double sided bike lanes in both directions. Um, I just think people need to be also just a bit cautious when, when they go to be wary of like, okay, this, this is new. Uh, but, but then again, when you get used to it, maybe when you have biked there for a couple of months, you know what you're going to expect when you go out there and then you probably ride with much more calm state of mind. Philip Jelvard 00:17:46 Um, and, and for these traffic safety, like points of interest that we had, we at least tried to take steps. So, so like pedestrians and cyclists, and at least slower moving traffic would be, would be a lot more visible. We have areas where cyclists crosses the road and stuff, and that's, we, we did some steps to, to try and make that more visible for, for, uh, for driver's point of view and as well, trying to like, let's light up the people in the road, we don't necessarily need to light up the cyclist when they're on, let's say they're part of this area, like cycling and stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, there is, there is standards to follow when it comes to roads or bigger roads where you have to have a certain color rendering, this falls completely out of that, but the road is still classified as, as an area where there's, it's not necessarily needed. Philip Jelvard 00:18:41 Uh, and I'm heavy that, that we at least could argue the case and, and get to an agreement where we could see that maybe this road doesn't have to fulfill a, a highway standard, but, but at least let's, let's try and let's try and meet in the middle for the nature as well. So, so yeah, because, because then you wouldn't be able to do anything anyway, you had a road basically, so it's nice that at least we can see that. Okay. Yeah, we can, we can, um, uh, we need to balance it out. Basically. We can, uh, take a bit of comfort away from the, the people that are most comfortable driving around out there and, and give a little bit back, um, which I think is nice. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:22 Yeah. It's very nice. So we have to compromise for nature of it on these things. That, Philip Jelvard 00:19:27 That was the word compromise, looking for it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:28 Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I'm just wondering, also kind of, this is pilot now. Right. Um, and then what's next, really? So, um, have you collected, you know, uh, insights on it and now you're continuing it what's really next for the project. Jonas Jørgensen 00:19:50 Yeah, no, right now I actually think I talked to you about this only the other day, um, when you called me, uh, and, and we, it's gonna be hard to measure because we don't have any benchmark or anything because yeah. How can you measure it with other mal? We, we wouldn't be able to tell, uh, so, so I think that the only way for us to measure it, uh, is to, to ask people how they feel about it. Uh, and that that's a good benchmark. The, the only problem is the next step is we, we don't have a lot of these rural areas. So we are very limited where we can do something else, but I would say it, it, it doesn't necessarily have to be a rural areas. It could be some sort of path, small path or something. We it's just, it's an eye opener to, you can do other things with light. I don't know what, and that's why we have experts, but <laugh>, but it's just to, to, instead of doing it the normal way, let's change a traditional life or traditional light. We are not rethinking, but we are doing, as we are saying, uh, we, we have these sustainable goals. We wanna be Philip said, cloud, the fun thing about working there is it's, it, it is an ambitious Moony policy and they there's money to do these things. That's I would say that's a good thing. Uh, but you also need to do them. Uh, so Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:14 Any advice, so people wanting to do something similar yeah. Jonas Jørgensen 00:21:17 Right now, but yeah, it's hard because municipalities are so differently is structured with economy, but it's just, it's nice when politicians say let's do sustainable goals and let's be better at, and then let's lower our C tool use it, then, then that we actually are able to do it. Uh, so I don't know what the next exact step is, but Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:41 Figuring it out on the way. Yeah. Um, yeah. Sorry, go ahead Philip. Philip Jelvard 00:21:46 I think from, from like, at least the things that we have seen, like working with this for a bit of time, now that it seems like there've been, like, people have been afraid to take the first step, because you can see all the interest that's coming your way with other money. Penaltalities calling it. Like now they suddenly want it because someone was willing enough to, okay, let's, we're gonna do it. You know, like, like we're not gonna wait for someone to do it, but we'll take the first step and we'll, we'll make a break, you know, basically, uh, glad that it didn't, you know, it feels like we, we made something that's at least meant to last, uh, and, and it's creating interest. Um, and, and hopefully that will just continue. So, so we see more of these projects. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:22:29 Yeah. And I think, I mean, I'm so happy that Glen chose to go all the way with us and, and do the, in some ways extreme solution, which is very narrow band red light on all the time red all the time. And I think in the future for, I mean, for residential areas, stuff like that, you could maybe have light that is wide, uh, when it's needed for people that is, uh, from early in the evening until late in the evening. And, but then on for the rest of the night, you know, in a red color. So that, that we kind of share the night, uh, with nature, um, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:04 Share the night. I like that term <laugh> that might have to be the title of this podcast episode also. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:23:13 And I think, I mean, we as consultants right now, the science is kind of, uh, a bit ahead of us. Uh, so they have, there's a lot of science on how light affects animals, but there's not really any science on what happens or very little on what happens when you do a lighting projects in tune to nature, and then research on how did this project change the nature, where the light is. Um, and we really want to start more corporations with biologists, uh, to see, okay, uh, we put up red light instead of white light. What happens? Uh, we need benchmarks. We need to work out how happy were the BES before we started all the frogs or the snakes. And it's it's, I mean, the more we research this, the more we find out that it's, it's so insanely complicated. Uh, and it's, it's so hard to do everything right all the time. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:24:10 So a product like SAK is doing something right. Some of the time, and it's just the first step and, and a listening, if you do something, something will happen. Uh, but I mean, I think it should, we should all, so be honest and say, we don't think that this has saved nature, uh, as a football field, like 500 meters away from, from this nightly red lane, uh, which is just pumping out lots of wide lights. I don't know how the bats feel about that. So this is taking the first step and, and bring, uh, starting a discussion and, and, uh, maybe just making people aware that, uh, light has an effect in nature. And then we need to take that into account when we put up lights. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:24:56 Yeah. That's a really good point. Um, so Jonas, no, no, um, intention to make the football players start playing under red light. Jonas Jørgensen 00:25:04 Not my, no, I'm a huge football fan. So I would, I would appreciate if not, but I just wanted to say, as we say, this is, as I, as far as I know, this is the first kind first of a kind project here locally. I Haven I haven't heard anything in Denmark about that's similar to this. And it's a very learned by doing project because yeah, our environmental <laugh> department or team, they were like, I'm not gonna say mad, but they were just, why didn't you ask us about this project? And it was just like, oh, that makes sense. But I forgot <laugh> I thought <inaudible> had, but they were just like, we could have told so much information and okay. Yeah. Now I know, but it's also like the project that's, that's five different areas working together. Yes. We also just within our department or within our music policy need to work together and, and they had so much knowledge that we, we, we probably could have used. And, and so, so as, or that benchmark next time, and yes, use the existing knowledge we have. <laugh> better. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:14 Well, that, that kind of goes really nicely into this segment, um, which is a segment we call trial and error, trial and error. What went wrong, what mistakes were made along the way. And more importantly, what lessons were learned. Did, does anyone want to start Philip Jelvard 00:26:38 Well, does there's nothing that comes to mind you should there be, you know, <laugh>, this is a consultant speaking. Yeah. I think we, we did everything perfectly seen the bus coming, but we're not push exactly. You know, I've been told to say this, but I can, as, as, as the, if you look at the project itself, it is a success, but yes, what could be better? We, this, this was a, not a new way of working, but it was a completely new area of working. And normally when we do projects in the music policy, we always know, work out our stakeholders. And before doing this project, we, we, I knew who they were, but as this project within the project went along, uh, the stakeholders, um, we, we didn't know the stakeholders were bads and environmental empowerment. And so, so that was something, it couldn't be a handle better, but, but it's just, it's it's, you need to consider this when, when <laugh>, when you go along. Jonas Jørgensen 00:27:47 So, so that's one area where I, I'm not gonna say it's an era because it's just, it, I think it could have helped smoothed the process. Yeah. A little bit. And then of course, there's the way we communicate things within the, and how we sell the product because, um, what people, it's, it's kind of funny, but, but if you look at the economy, we have, we have, uh, maintenance economy and new projects. And when we do, like, this is a maintenance project, uh, this red light, uh, bad. But when we do a project like this and, and right on Facebook, people are always asking, oh, so you got money enough for the best, but not for the old people. <laugh> and they it's it's the, the, the economy is very complex. So no, we are not taking any money from <laugh> from the elderly, from the elderly, you didn't steal from their pension. Jonas Jørgensen 00:28:41 No, no, this is, this is completely different. And, and they have nothing to do, but it's just the way of communicating. Um, so it's not, I cannot an error, but it's just, we need to be better at, at this sort of thing. And, and another thing that I don't ever think we could change that about it, but, but Corona did happen and all deliverance were just completely scheduled to, to new time slots. So yeah, when we thought we could do the project, uh, I think it was around September August-ish we, we hoped then I think we had a, a, a delay in all delivery. So it was around new year <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so we, we couldn't change that, but it's just, we, we, we had, we had a good story about, we are, we are building right at this time slot because of the breeding season for bats, and we are really taking them into consideration and then, okay. Yeah, we had to move it, but those things happened. And I don't think we could have done anything about it, Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:29:46 But I think they're in hibernation anyway. Jonas Jørgensen 00:29:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's, it's, I, I was, it is just communication is the, the, the biggest part of this sort of project, because people need to understand it and standard end, we can't just do what we wanna do. <laugh> Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:30:03 And I think that's actually two of the main points we, we talk about when we talk about these new kinds of projects as a consultant, that, that the communication between municipality and the future users is very important because there will always be angry people on Facebook, but you can mitigate, uh, the impact of that if you communicate well. And then this crossdisciplinary need, uh, that, that the people who are responsible for lighting municipalities are often, uh, not really used to working with the biologists in the municipality. And, and we need these projects to be engaged with both part from the beginning, uh, to make them work as well as possible. I think Jonas Jørgensen 00:30:45 I would say exactly. And, and, uh, a little, normally I don't do this, but I spent some, some consultant hours for them to write the text that I could use for public publishing, uh, story about this, because I didn't know enough about this, and we really need to sell me the good story <laugh> and they need to understand it. So, yeah, that's, that's Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:31:08 <laugh>, and it's just important for me to know that, that we are not a biologist either. We are aware that we are the middlemen as between tech middleman, as consults between technology and biology and the needs of the end customers Jonas Jørgensen 00:31:19 Yeah. And I'm even, I'm not an light expert either, so I'm even worse. <laugh> so, but, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:31:24 But you need, you need all these sorts of people working together to make this project happen. Right. And, um, bringing the citizens along the way is a really important lesson. I think just co co-creating something with them, setting expectations. Right. And Jonas Jørgensen 00:31:38 That, that's one of the UN goals that we have, it's called partnership, where a lot of people look this, look at it as the, the emergency policy and businesses working together. But I look at it as we, we need to involve the citizens, the, the users. So, so partnership is one of those UN goals that we have, uh, in the municipality. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:00 Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Um, yeah. Thanks so much. And then I'm going to ask you all, um, uh, reoccurring question. We ask every single gas, and you can answer in any way that you would like what it means to you. Um, what is a Smart City? We'll start with you, Philip <laugh>. Philip Jelvard 00:32:19 I should have said more on the last segment, you know, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:21 Then you'd get to go last. You can talk about it from a lighting perspective, if you'd like, because, you know, we have people from all different types of, um, sectors talk about what, what really makes a city smart. So to you, and from your perspective, what, what would make a city smart either in lighting or overall Philip Jelvard 00:32:44 Like the, the first things that, that come to mind when, when smart city? I think maybe it's because it's, I dunno if you call it like an indoctrination with all this, like, oh, it needs wifi. It needs to talk with, like, everything needs to be connected. I haven't seen a good use case for it yet. And I probably just think that that would make lighting dumber in a sense. So for me, like now, now it's just more about lighting in, in a smart city maybe, but it's something that considers like everything, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:33:16 The bats, Philip Jelvard 00:33:17 For instance, like out there, it was the bats and, and the people in, in, in a city center, maybe it isn't the bats, but maybe it's the, you can support activity and rest as well. Like again, as long as said, like the great phrase we share the night, like in a city, there's other use cases in a city that's always alive there, maybe that isn't too healthy for anyone living in it. Like there needs to be time to, to get new energy, to like, like there's a day tomorrow as well, you know? So, so a city that considers every need of, of the people that live in it, and if there's no people at the animals that live in it, so yeah. All consider it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:34:00 Yeah. Holi a very holistic approach. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. I like it. Uh, Jonas. Jonas Jørgensen 00:34:05 Yeah. I would, I think when, when for me it's something about us utilization, what we, we have certain amount of square meters <laugh> we have, we, we don't have anymore room, so it's it it's for me, the first thing that's right. My mind is, is a, a car doesn't need to take up 12 square meters of space, 90% of the time it's more sharing or for the light. I know, I, I don't know anything about this, but I know they're ready for, they have open software. Uh, so I don't know what the future brings, but they're ready for it. Um, we talk about smart city for me is, is probably more within the like green mobility area that that's for, for me, uh, car sharing, uh, better way finding better park, better use of the space that we have, uh, is, is a completely complex question. But, but from, from me, it's like utilization of this space we have in the best possible way. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:35:09 So yeah. Yeah. And sharing a lot, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sharing our resources. Good. Rune. You're up. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:35:17 Yeah. I'll support Philip and say maybe at darker city and, uh, city, we have the light in tune for the rhythm of the people living there. Uh, and this is not something that's just right around the corner, because we are using the same street lights that we have been for love fears, but I mean, that could be hope, uh, less light only when, where it's needed and when it's needed. Uh, and then I think the smart city thing, there's a lot of possibilities, uh, and sometimes a lot more possibilities than solutions. And I think smart city is somewhere where someone is held responsible for converting house abilities to solutions in order to serve the public interest. And I think there's lot of hi and a lot of, uh, we can do this, we can do that, but, but very often it doesn't really end up with solution that takes humans into account Tamlyn Shimizu 00:36:13 All really good answers. I'm very impressed. <laugh> so, um, yeah, with that, it it's been a really big pleasure. Um, would you all like to have any last words or anything, otherwise I will close us out and just say, thank you. Rune Brandt Hermannsson 00:36:27 Just, yeah. A minor detail that we missed out, I think is that the red light, uh, biologically doesn't affect our night vision as much as the white light does. So actually when you are walking or biking through the GL project, you can see, uh, the surroundings and the night sky a little better, which is kind of a nice, nice side effect of the red light. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:36:47 Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think about that as well. You know, there's actually, you know, may, might take some time to get used to, but there's some benefits on the human side too. Philips sound, it looks like he wants to respond to Philip Jelvard 00:36:58 Don't like, it's because we don't have many of these area in these metropolitan, like big urban areas. So like, oh, this is maybe a plug. Like, so if you really wanna see the night sky, you know, you go to Xa <laugh>, you know, Jonas Jørgensen 00:37:12 We, we, we have thought about like selling it at some, how, how can we do it? <laugh> but, but, uh, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:37:18 New tourists attraction. Jonas Jørgensen 00:37:20 Yeah, yeah, exactly. People go to <inaudible> Jonas Jørgensen 00:37:23 To watch the trees go out there and watch the red light. It's it's quite something. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:37:29 So your next destination. Um, yeah. So thank you. Thank you so much to all of you. Um, always pleasure to be able to sit in person as well, especially in the beautiful city of Copenhagen. Um, yeah. And thank you for Jonas for sharing your sides from the municipality side. I think it's also very valuable to have, um, on the private side of things also, thank you to Philip and Rune, um, on, yeah. Sharing all your insights about lighting and expertise there. Um, and to all of our listeners, if you want to learn more about projects and real life implementations in smart cities in Europe and beyond, you can find more information on bable-smartcities.eu and be part of our community by signing up for free. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.

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