#15 Umeå: "You Don't Need Technology to be Smart"

Episode 21 October 19, 2022 00:33:57
#15 Umeå: "You Don't Need Technology to be Smart"
Smart in the City – The BABLE Podcast
#15 Umeå: "You Don't Need Technology to be Smart"

Oct 19 2022 | 00:33:57


Hosted By

Tamlyn Shimizu

Show Notes

In this episode, we ventured again to Sweden by discussing with the Strategic Developer of the city of UmeåCarina Aschan. We had the opportunity to sit down with her at the Urban Future conference 2022 in Helsingborg, Sweden and to discuss behaviour change, EU projects, gender equality, gamification and more!

Carina is also the Project Manager of the Ruggedised H2020 Project, which brings together three lighthouse cities: Rotterdam, Glasgow and Umeå, as well as three fellow cities: Brno, Gdansk and Parma to test, implement and accelerate the Smart City model across Europe.


Register now for our new online training course: SMARTER CONNECTED PLACES - experiential learning for tomorrow's urban leaders, which will take place from 15.11.2022 to 06.12.2022.


Overview of the episode:

01:30 - Teaser: In what way is Carina a magician?

02:31 - What does it mean to be a Strategic Developer for a city?

04:07 - What is social sustainability?

05:31 - What is the Ruggedised H2020 Project?

09:27 - And what happens after the end of the project? How can we get people to stay on board?

13:43 - Is there a right and a wrong time to use technology?

16:02 - Can we use gamification to prompt citizen behaviour change?

19:39  - Are there any hurdles when a city has a big student population?

22:16 - Carina's take on transports and behaviour change

24:27 - How can cities collaborate more and learn more from each other?

31:49 - Trial and Error: what went wrong? What mistakes were made along the way, and more importantly, what lessons were learned?

32:01 -  Ending Question: To you, what is a Smart City?


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View Full Transcript

Episode Transcript

Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:06 Welcome to Smart in the City, the BABLE Podcast. I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu. And really at BABLE, we aim to connect the players in the smart city industry with high-quality information and ideas through our platform and services. This podcast is really an extension of this goal and mission to drive the change for a better urban life. First, a quick announcement from BABLE. We are delighted to announce a new interactive online training course, Smarter Connected Places Experiential Learning for Tomorrow's Urban Leaders. You can find the link for more information and how to register in the show notes. The training starts on November 15th, so make sure not to miss it now onto our regular programming. Yeah, let's go to Sweden again, shall we? Um, so today on the Journey, we are venturing into the city of, Umeå in, uh, Sweden, which is a university town, and especially known for being a research hub in Sweden, if I'm not mistaken. Um, so with me for this episode is a wonderful guest, Carina Aschan, who is a strategic developer at the city of Umeå and the project manager of the Ruggedized H2020 project. So yeah, welcome to the show. Carina Aschan 00:01:23 Thanks. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:24 Um, did it, did you want to add anything to your title or did that cover It? Carina Aschan 00:01:29 Sounded good. Okay. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:30 <laugh> good. We'll dig into your background a bit in a, in a little bit. Um, so I want to get us just a little bit warmed up, um, before we dive in a bit deeper to everything you're working on, uh, which I'm excited to hear about. And so, in your bio for Urban Future conference, um, that we're at right now, by the way, in the beautiful city of Helsingborg, it says you are a magician. So, uh, what are you a magician of? Carina Aschan 00:01:57 Oh, yeah, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:58 <laugh>, Carina Aschan 00:01:59 I knew I were gonna get a question about that because I wrote it down, but, uh, I think, uh, you have to be kind of a magician to, to change, to do change, to, to make people, um, know that something has to be done. So I think that's kind of the main core of my work to, to trigger people to do something else, and that's really, really hard. Yeah. So you have to kind of Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:27 Show, work your magic. Carina Aschan 00:02:29 Exactly. <laugh> Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:31 Cool. Yeah, that it struck me. I mean, when I was reading your bio, it was very, Oh, wow. That's, that's interesting. And I, I want to get to know you better so that I can, uh, ask you that. So, um, so you're a strategic developer? Yeah. Okay. So what does that mean also? Carina Aschan 00:02:49 Um, it could mean really anything, but, uh, my role at the city is to, to work for the long term planning of a sustainable city. It marries a very growing city and, uh, uh, to, to make it sustainable or keep it sustainable in the future when it's even bigger. Uh, you have to look at the strategic planning how to, how to, to hold on the planning and not change your course when things are going a bit slow. Uh, so, uh, it's, it's more to keep, keep the eye on the horizon, kind of above the horizon to see, uh, to see what's, uh, what, what do we need to do now to, to have a sustainable city in 50 years or in 10 years, or whenever the, the goal for something that we're doing is. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:45 Okay, cool. Um, big, uh, big ambitions and a, a big role as well, Carina Aschan 00:03:50 <laugh>. Yeah. It's a bit difficult sometimes to, to convince people, uh, that wants some kind of result now, because it's, it's much more fun to have a result now to deliver something now, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. Long term is someone has to Tamlyn Shimizu 00:04:07 Look at the long term as well. Exactly. Gotcha. So, um, I believe it also said in your bio something about, you know, social sustainability mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what is social sustainability to you? Carina Aschan 00:04:20 Uh, well, it's, uh, it's the part where the people, you don't have to leave. You can't leave the people behind because sometimes you, you might look a bit too much on what you're doing, some technical development, but it's, we're building a city for people and, uh, to keep a city social sustainable. When it's growing, it's really difficult. I think it's the most difficult part of it. Like, because technology is not so hard, <laugh>, it's there everywhere. Yeah. And to, to have, uh, a good life, uh, is social sustainability sustainable, uh, life, uh, it's, uh, it's different for everyone also. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everyone doesn't have the same, uh, view of what is a good life or a sustainable life or social sustainability. But UIA is also focusing very much on gender equality. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:19 Okay. Carina Aschan 00:05:20 Yeah. We say that as a base for social sustainability mm-hmm. <affirmative> that men and women must have the same, uh, opportunity to form their life as as they want. So, yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:31 Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I, I've focused that on that topic actually a lot, kind of in my former life, as I like to say, um, working in women's education and, uh, yeah. Quite passionate about that lid. So I'd have to dig you, um, dig into your mind a bit more on that one. So can you, I, I also am quite familiar with the Ruggedized project mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, previously, But, uh, can you tell our listeners also what it is, uh, what is the focus and Yeah. Where you're at really with the, with the project? Carina Aschan 00:06:02 Yeah. Uh, Rudi, like you said in the beginning here, it's a, a Horizon 2020 project where Umeå is working together with the Rotterdam and Glasgow, um, to, we are the three lighthouse cities developing smart districts in our cities. So it's like, um, uh, you could say that we, we have a living lab of one district each where we are trying to make it sustainable by smart solutions. Uh, but, uh, sometimes when people ask what is smart, uh, I think it's the, kind of the same as sustainable. Yeah. You have to look at the social side, the economical side on the ecological side. So we have a, uh, innovation district, inia, uh, where we have the university and the hospital area. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, uh, we've tried different kind of solutions. Mostly, um, connected to energy because of <laugh>, a city in north of Sweden, we are kind of obsessed with heat <laugh>, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:07:13 Rightfully so. Yes. Carina Aschan 00:07:15 <laugh>. So, uh, uh, and, uh, why it's not just a normal energy project. It's, uh, when we say it's smart, smart is, uh, when everything is connected, both people and, uh, technology, everything has to work together with each other. You can't just make one building smart and then the others are not, or, uh, yeah. So, uh, the main part of it, I would say is the corporation between the actors, the, the state owners, or the energy company, or the parking company. It's so many things that have to fit together. Uh, so, um, the, like I said, the technology is, is not the hard bit, it's the cooperation to, with the actors, because it's people. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes new people come in and they might have a different view of something. And, uh, so, uh, at the moment we are, we've been doing this actually for six years. Carina Aschan 00:08:22 <laugh>, it's a long, it was a long project because of the, uh, covid period got extended. Yeah. Extended. Uh, we didn't have problems with it because we didn't have a, uh, shut down in Sweden, like other countries in Europe. But, uh, we had to wait for Glasgow and Rotterdam because they couldn't do anything during this time. <laugh>. Uh, so we are in the end of it, we have, uh, several super smart solutions that, uh, we've tested and also, uh, upscaled to other parts. And, uh, we are using this, uh, these smart solutions, uh, when we're building new, uh, areas in Nuia housing areas. And, uh, we also, I think the, the corporation that we have, that we built up during these years is something that will not disappear. It's some, it's really, uh, it's really good and it's really valuable, uh, for the city when it's growing, because we need these actors in every part. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:09:27 Yeah. How do you ensure that it does stay? So, you know, a lot of the time you have these projects, right? And then maybe the funding runs out, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or the project ends. Yeah. And so what, what is, what is happening after that? Carina Aschan 00:09:41 Yeah. When it comes to the corporation, it's, uh, that we keep, we keep, uh, uh, having meetings together with actors, uh, to, to discuss what is next, because everyone has seen, uh, during the project that, uh, what you can do, Uh, of course we have, uh, money from external funding, but also it's built in, in the, in every solution that it's, it has to be worth, worth it. Yeah. It has to be, If you do it, and then we don't use it in other places, uh, it's, it's not worth it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, I mean, if you, if you have a solution that's too expensive to implement, even if you save lots of energy, you will not do it again. So we always try to do, do cheap, that can be paid back somehow, otherwise they're not successful. Yeah. And, um, um, I think we also, uh, it's so important to, to keep meeting with, with the actors and talk about what, what their needs are and what they want to do next. And, uh, this area is really good also because, or <inaudible> in, in general is quite good because it's, uh, uh, the population is quite young, so they're open to new solutions and, uh, interested in smart solutions or technology. So, so it's quite easy to, to get, uh, get people engaged in, in these kind of, uh, projects. So this is also something that makes it go on somehow. Yeah. Because, uh, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:30 Cause people get involved and want to contribute and want to see it continue, right? Yeah. Yeah. That, that plays a huge role. So what advice would you have to getting people on board and getting people to stay? Carina Aschan 00:11:45 Um, well communicate Carina Aschan 00:11:49 All the time, um, to, well, to listen to people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what are their needs because, uh, um, everyone is not interested, but everyone doesn't have to be interested. But you have to find those areas where people are interested because everyone is interested in something. You might not be interested in the technology, but you are interested in, uh, to have like a good climate inside your, uh, home. Or if you are interested in, uh, technology, you might think it's really cool to have, uh, like, you know, smart sensors that tells you if you forgot to close your fridge or something like that. Yeah. So you, I mean, it's different from different people, so Tamlyn Shimizu 00:12:37 Yeah, absolutely. Carina Aschan 00:12:38 Just find that little thing. It's, it's really time consuming to communicate or, uh, meet people like that, where it's definitely worth it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:12:46 Yeah. It's always worth it in the end to over, also overcommunicate, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so would you say Ruggedize is your favorite project, or would you have another one that you like to speak about <laugh>, or do you not like to pick favorites? Carina Aschan 00:13:00 <laugh>, I don't pick Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:01 Favorites. Carina Aschan 00:13:02 Everyone is, uh, is good in their own ways and they have different kind of, uh, you know, outcomes or goals. Uh, I'm not actually, I'm not that interested in technology, so, and ruggedize this, it's, it's a lot of technology in it. Okay. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:19 Yeah. It's Carina Aschan 00:13:20 A technology project. Yeah. But like I said, there's so much, uh, other, so many other things that are interesting in it. It's, uh, it's the, like I said, uh, that it's not just technology that has to be connected, its people. Yeah. And that's my interest really. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So technology is something that just, well, we use it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:43 Yeah. And I think I read that also with you, that, um, so I wanted to ask you, so when's the right time to use super cool technical innovations, and when is the wrong time? Carina Aschan 00:13:53 Oh, it, it depends on, uh, uh, the people that you're working with, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> what their interested is. Yeah. And, uh, in public space, super technology is usually not a good Mm. Good way of go to go because, uh, this, uh, when in, in the smart city technology area, it's usually quite sensitive equipment with sensors and, you know, uh, like, uh, super smart, uh, technology to, to, uh, see when a bus is coming or something like that. It has to be in a, in a public space, everything has to be really, uh, robust. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:14:39 Yeah. Carina Aschan 00:14:39 And inia, where we have the, uh, extreme weather, really in the wintertime, it can go below, you know, 25, 30 below zero, and in the summertime the other way, like twenty five, thirty degrees born. So it has to, it has to manage all these, uh, shifts in, in, uh, in weather. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:06 Yeah. Yeah. So the extreme weather makes it difficult for these technologies Yeah. To, to be as effective and really do their job. So then what do you do instead? You Carina Aschan 00:15:17 Use Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:17 People human solutions. Carina Aschan 00:15:20 Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. You, you made, you might, uh, use some kind of, uh, smart, um, cooperation model or corporation, uh, or business model that, uh, that is not that, that you don't need, uh, technology to become smart. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, for example, a smart parking strategy or something. Yeah. Or making deals together with, uh, uh, housing companies to, to provide bike garages instead of car garages. Yeah. That kind of just not so technical solutions Tamlyn Shimizu 00:16:02 Really. Yeah. Yeah. I always say that smart city, and we'll actually touch on this later for sure, but I actually say it's, for me personally, it's when knowing when to use technology and when, when not to use it as well mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, is what makes, uh, yeah. A city smart. So, um, so I also wanted to ask you, because I saw that UMO was, is working on a gamification solution mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and so I wa was wondering your opinion on that, what you think about, uh, gamification and if that's the direction that we should be going as far as prompting citizen behavior change, et cetera. Carina Aschan 00:16:41 Mm. Well, I would say maybe not. So <laugh> good. Perhaps as, as we didn't, um, I wouldn't say that that solution was a success. Okay. We tried to, to get people to, uh, uh, in, in like a housing, um, uh, where the, we have flats, uh, to get people to kind of compete to game mm-hmm. <affirmative> between them who could save the most energy. Yeah. But in these days, it's, uh, it was based on an app. Okay. And people are just sick of apps. <laugh>, it's like another app and it has to be really, really cool. Or, you know, you're competing with Apple kind of, you know. So, uh, it's difficult to get people to, uh, what, what's in it for them really. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think it's easy. What people really want is to see like, quick results that if I do this, I will save money and energy is a bit too cheap to, to get, get that quick result. So, uh, so Tamlyn Shimizu 00:17:52 What's the solution? Expensive energy? It is going up the prices, right? Yeah. Um, so what's the solution there, do you think? Carina Aschan 00:18:01 Uh, it's a difficult question because, um, in, in Sweden in many places, we have, uh, uh, when you rent a flat, the heat is included in the rent mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so it's very difficult. You don't see if it's, uh, how much you use or not. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:20 Yeah. Carina Aschan 00:18:20 So, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:22 So if you, if maybe the solution then for that case it would be that it would be, uh, landlords have to split it or something along those lines. Right. Carina Aschan 00:18:31 Or I'm, I'm not gonna say that energy should be more expensive, <laugh>, but maybe you could get something else in return than money because it, if you look at the money, it's not that, uh, you know, it's not that big. Maybe you get something else. Maybe you get a free, um, commuting card on the public transport. Yeah. If you say more, something like that, that's, uh, that's something we want to test, at least to see how people react to that. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:03 Yeah. Has that been done before? Carina Aschan 00:19:05 I don't know. We haven't found, uh, uh, an example of it, but when we asked around in the university among students to, to hear what, what, what would be good to just get in return if you did something good, like turned off the lights in the classrooms or something, and what they answered was like, free coffee would be good. So, so it's not much that's, you know, people Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:31 Are usually incentivized a lot by free coffee. <laugh> not even free. It doesn't even have to be free sometimes <laugh>, but Carina Aschan 00:19:38 Coffee, just coffee. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:39 Yeah. It's a good, um, dangling the carrot before the, the nose. Right. Um, yeah. So also you, you talk a bit about, um, the students and how open-minded they are, and you obviously have a big student population there mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and so there's quite a lot of forward thinking people with new ideas and everything like that. Um, I guess one part of the question is what's also like the bad part of this? Is there anything that's, I guess, are there any hurdles when you have like a big student population and things like that in your city? Carina Aschan 00:20:13 Uh, I would say the hard thing about that is that students, they move all the time. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:20:18 I am <laugh> Carina Aschan 00:20:19 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's difficult to have like a long term relationship with your, uh, population when they leave after a few years. I mean, obviously we have a goal to, to get as many as possible to stay Inu <laugh>. Yeah. That's Tamlyn Shimizu 00:20:35 So providing jobs and Carina Aschan 00:20:36 Exactly. Good flats and, uh, uh, but otherwise it's also, I mean, because we always get new, uh, people coming in, young people, we all always get new ideas also, uh, and, uh, international students come with different views and they see something that we might think is you, you know, we used to do it because we've done it forever. They might see it a different way. Like, why do you do that? They ask questions. And so I think, uh, it's mostly pos positive to have this kind of, uh, you know, <laugh> young, progressive, uh, population. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:19 Yeah. Carina Aschan 00:21:20 Also, they put a lots of pressure on us as a city. They put pressure on the politicians. Yeah. And they make them braver so they can, you know, take hard decisions maybe. Yeah. Because that's what we need. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:35 Yeah. Yeah. And do you collaborate with the university as a city? A lot? Carina Aschan 00:21:40 Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's our closest, uh, partner. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they are also partner in the Ragged Ice Project. So yeah. They're a partner in everything we do. I think Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:50 <laugh>. Good, good. Um, yeah. Wonderful. And I will also give you the time now if you'd like it, the floor, so to say. Um, if you want to speak about anything that you find is particularly interesting, um, very important for people to know. Um, you don't have to take the floor, but I give it to you if you want mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, to, uh, Yeah. Talk about something you're passionate about or something that's really impactful. Carina Aschan 00:22:16 I think, uh, when it comes to becoming a climate neutral city, uh, we, we work a lot on, on the energy part of the, uh, buildings and everything, But really, uh, if you look at the CO2 emissions that a city has, it's, the buildings are almost nothing compared to the transports. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So this is something that I am super passionate about, really, that how do we do this change? How can we make it happen? It's so difficult and it's, it's also based on, uh, people, people's behavior. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and that is so difficult to, uh, you can't, as a city, you can't make decisions for your citizens saying that you're not allowed to, to use your car. And, uh, um, but of course we can, uh, we can plan our city in a way that it makes it easier to take a bike. Carina Aschan 00:23:19 We have of, when we have a, a student population, we all, it's also a bike city. Of course, a lot of people bike in Umu, but it's still 50% of all the, uh, travels to, to, and fourth work and stuff in, in the city are made by a car. Yeah. And it, and it doesn't really help if we just, all the cars are electric. Like some, you get the idea sometimes from people, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> because they, they take so much space in, in a city. So, uh, and, and, uh, we have to plan the city, uh, a bit tighter. Yeah. So that people live close to everything and have a, a good distance. I mean, it's easy for us. In Sweden, we have quite small cities, but around the world, there are cities, there are, I mean, you take hours from one side to another, it's difficult. So, uh, but this is, um, yeah, it's something that, uh, uh, we think about a lot and we, we try to find solutions to, but it's really, really difficult. Uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so, Yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:24:27 Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. And I think there's a lot of cities. I mean, I've talked to cities all over and, um, they echo of course, a lot of similar challenges. Um, so can, can, I guess, can you, um, collaborate more and learn more from each other? Or what, what would you say with that? Carina Aschan 00:24:47 I think, I think we do cities collaborate all the time. Yeah. And we share our good ideas and we copy each other. But every city is different also. Yeah. Uh, you can't, you can't always copy the exact, the same solution. But, um, I think we, I mean, just being here in Helsing boring now listening to different solutions, we will come back with, Wow, that's a good idea. Maybe we could try that out. Yeah. Uh, so, but it's always also when we work on this new solutions, like if it's a smart city solution or whatever, uh, it's, uh, it costs money. And as a city, we are kind of playing around with the taxpayer's money. Yeah. So we also have to, to think about that, that, uh, is that allowed? But on the other hand, sometimes I think also, can we afford not to play around with it mm-hmm. <affirmative> and try new solutions? Probably not, but it's a, it's a combination of this. We have to be innovative, but, uh, we can't just, I mean, we have schools, we have social services. These are things that also have to work in a city, and they are the main kind of, uh, uh, tasks for, to, to provide the citizens with this. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:14 Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so with that, I will go into a little segment. Um, and it's a segment we like to call trial and error, Speaker 4 00:26:24 Trial and error, What went wrong, what mistakes were made along the way, and more importantly, what lessons were learned. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:36 I think we touched on it a bit, but maybe you can share a bit more about, um, really a lessons, a lesson learned. Carina Aschan 00:26:44 Uh, yeah. What went, went wrong? <laugh>, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:47 <laugh>. Lots. Lots. Go lots, Right. Always goes wrong. But Carina Aschan 00:26:51 I think if, if, if it didn't go wrong, we didn't try enough. Yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:55 Perhaps Carina Aschan 00:26:56 <laugh>. But we had, uh, we had, like, one example that we did was, um, we have electrical buses in umo. And one problem that we, uh, had had with them was that when in the boarding procedure, when people get on and off, uh, we have to open the doors and people get on and off. And in the wintertime when it's really cold, you lose the heat from the bus. And, uh, um, that then you have to heat the bus up and you take from, uh, take battery power. So the range go down. So we wanted to try to make a bus stop, uh, to solve this kind of a bus stop that, um, uh, people go into the bus stop and it's kind of a closed place mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's a bit heated, and the bus stops onto this bus stop. Oh, wow. Uh, so you go in and out. But that, when we started talking to people about this, uh, we, that was, this is an example of when, when we forgot to think that there was people, they're gonna use this place. And, uh, it was really good that we had students testing out the idea. And, uh, what we got from especially young women saying that, no way, I would go into a bus stop if there's a horrible person standing there, why would I, Because you go into like a closed place. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:21 Yeah, yeah. Carina Aschan 00:28:22 Uh, waiting there on your own at night, maybe with someone, and if you don't feel secure, you have to go out, and then you would lose your ticket, kind of. And another thing that went wrong with this was that, uh, we, I mean, we procured new buses mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, uh, the design we had from the beginning, uh, was a different, uh, design from the new buses that we bought in, meaning that the doors were in a different place on the new buses. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:51 <laugh>, it didn't match, It didn't Carina Aschan 00:28:54 Match up. So in the end, we, we, we had some designers designed like an open, really cool bus stop. So it went, it was good in the end, but this was quite, uh, uh, the, it was a journey and expensive. And we learned that, uh, first of all, you have to talk to the people are gonna use something to, uh, Yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:16 Yeah. That's interesting. I I never thought of that concept before. Also this kind of like hooking up where how you can keep Carina Aschan 00:29:23 Heat Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:24 In a bus and Yeah. These are interesting topics. So, um, and we also touched again on that, um, the topic of kind of this gender equality mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, equity type lens. Um, can you just briefly mention maybe something else that, um, how is the city addressing some of these challenges with, um, with gender inequality? Carina Aschan 00:29:48 Uh, yeah. Uh, we, I mean, this was one example, the bus stop mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, I mean, Yeah. Women because, uh, uh, it's very important that people feel, uh, safe and secure in the city. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we have seen like, um, uh, that it's young women that don't feel secure enough. Yeah. They feel less secure than men, but men, uh, end up in, in more trouble than women. So it's not, it's not the real, uh, it's not actual, it's just the feeling of security, kind of mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but, uh, we have also, I can say one example when, where, where we saw this in the planning, um, we built lots of nice places for young people to hang out, you know, football fields, skating park, uh, in, in an area. And we thought that, I mean, women play football also and, and skaters are both men and women. Carina Aschan 00:30:55 Uh, but, uh, we, we ended up talking to some women that, that don't do anything. They just wanted to hang out. And they said that if we go and we want to sun bath and we sit in the skate park, then some guys will come down, they'll say, Move, move away. We, we want to skate. Or if, uh, they sit on the football field, move away, we want to play football. So what we did to, to target this group of women that just want to hang out <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative> that normally now they hang out in the city center just doing nothing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Um, we did a, a project to, to build a new park where you could hang out. And we did it with a dialogue with only young women. It was like a, kind of an inclusion by exclusion <laugh>. So we excluded all other target groups. Uh, the park is for everyone, but it was only young women that could give their input to this park. So it, it was built upon their wishes and everything. And, uh, yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:01 That's inclusion through inclusion, through exclusion, I like Exactly. That's, that's an interesting concept. So, um, yeah. Thanks so much. And I have to ask you one more question because it's a question we ask every single guest, and I think, um, we, we spoke a bit about it, but maybe you can elaborate a bit on to you. What is a smart city? Carina Aschan 00:32:22 Hmm. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a city where, where everything is connected. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, both people and, uh, uh, technology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where everyone is working together to, to achieve the goal of the climate neutral city. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, smart city doesn't have to be lots of sensors or connectivity or it's just, uh, it could be smart by people Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:50 Also. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Wonderful answer. Um, <laugh>. So good one for that. And, uh, with that I won't take up any more of your time. You can, uh, go and enjoy. Well, this intermittently nice day, it rained a little bit and then some sun. And we're also at a wonderful conference right now, uh, learning a lot and exchanging a lot with different people. So, um, I hope that you really enjoy the conference, and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. Carina Aschan 00:33:17 Oh, thanks for listening. That was really nice to Tamlyn Shimizu 00:33:19 You. I'll listen anytime. So, um, to all of our listeners, also on the podcast, uh, don't forget, you can always create a free account on bable-smartcities.eu and you can find out more about different smart city projects, solutions, and implementations. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.

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