#16 CIVINET Greece-Cyprus: "Nothing Can Happen On Its Own"

Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:06 Welcome to Smart in the City, the BABLE podcast. I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu, and really at BABLE, we aim to connect the players in the smart city industry with high quality information and ideas through our platform and services. This podcast is really an extension of this goal and mission to drive the change for a better urban life. First, a quick announcement from BABLE. We are delighted to announce a new interactive online training course, Smarter Connected Places Experiential Learning for Tomorrow's Urban Leaders. You can find the link for more information and how to register in the show notes. The training starts on November 15th, so make sure not to miss it now onto our regular programming. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:55 So I'm sitting here with some special guests, of course, as always, <laugh>. But we just finished a week at, uh, The Urban Mobility Days in the Czech Republics. They were sitting here in the beautiful city of Beau, and I get the chance to, uh, welcome a guest that you've actually heard before as well. Um, and, uh, I get the chance to also speak to Greek guests again, which is always a special thing. Also, just in advance to not, uh, judge me too hard on the Greek, uh, name pronunciations, please. Um, but yeah, so if you've been following along for a little bit, then the first guest needs no introduction, but I will still introduce her, of course, for our new listeners. So, uh, Katerina Nikolopoulou works for the Greek speaking branch of the CIVITAs Initiative, the CIVINET Greece-Cyprus, and she's the network manager, but she also does a lot of other things as well. Um, so welcome again, Katerina onto the show. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:01:51 Nice to see you again, Ling. It's always nice to be with you in person in the podcast, uh, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:57 Everywhere. Everywhere. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:01:58 Exactly. <laugh>, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:00 Always nice to have you. You can come on a third time and a fourth time in the future, too. So I'm Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:02:05 Pretty sure that, uh, it will happen, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:07 <laugh>. Okay. Okay, good. Um, and today, of course, you're also privileged enough to have on another special guest who you haven't heard before. Um, but his name is Kosmas Anagnostopoulos <laugh>, which I definitely did not say, right? So please, Kosmas, tell me your name, the pronunciation Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:02:24 It's Kosmas Anagnostopoulos Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:28 <laugh>. There we go. That's, that's the, that's the right way to say it. Um, and he is the founder and coordinator of CVI net Grease Cypress. So, hi Cosmos, lovely to have you here. We'll Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:02:40 Be here with you and, uh, thank you very much for your in invitation. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:43 Yeah. Any, Yeah, any time. Any time. Release. So, um, we always get started here on the podcast with a little warm up exercise. A while ago for one of the first episodes of this podcast, um, I sat down with Yannis, who is the Vice Mayor of Heron, and I asked him this exact same question. So, uh, it is, Tell me one thing most people don't know about Greece. Either one can answer or you can feed off of each other. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:03:15 It can be anything, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:16 Anything. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:03:17 Well, in Greece, we are celebrating, uh, two times, one for our birthday and one for our name day. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:25 Ah, so you get two birthdays every year Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:03:28 In a, in a kind of, Yeah. Kind of Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:31 <laugh>. I I think that's just a Greek excuse for partying an extra day, right? <laugh>? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:03:36 Yes, of course. We have a lot of, uh, opportunities to, to party <laugh>. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:42 Good, good. I had no idea. So thanks for the little knowledge, um, update. So now of course, we want to get to, uh, the, why we're all listening here, and that's to find out all about your work and more about the Greek cities that you support and everything about this ecosystem. So, as I mentioned, we're coming from the Urban mobility days, So C Nets are essentially born outta the CITAs initiative. Um, but can you talk maybe Cosmos about, um, the background of C net grease Cyprus? What, how did it start and how, how have you developed it this far? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:04:20 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, first of all, uh, during 2015, uh, I was working for the, uh, sustainable Greek Islands network, which is called in Greek Daphne. Uh, I found there the, a sustainable mobility, uh, and special planning department. And, uh, then we were, we tried to bring all the Greek Islands into the CITAs community. Uh, at the same time, um, the acom the ACOM conference was organized in ans so we had the opportunity to, to meet in person, uh, the Cita secretary at and after that, um, there was an open call from, uh, Cita Saria that we applied, uh, creating, uh, uh, a great coalition, great alliance of, uh, Greek cities. And, uh, this, this was the starting point for cys, uh, together with, uh, a few, uh, initiatives that we took before founding this network and after, uh, its establishment. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:26 Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. And, um, maybe to Katerina, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, um, why you think that Savina is important for Greece to have? Um, like why do you think Yeah. Organizations need, um, <laugh> Yeah. Why do you think that organizations like yours need to exist, I guess? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:05:48 Well, I think there's so many reasons, uh, in order to have, uh, a network like that in Greece, uh, because even though there might be a lot of, uh, organizations and consultancies that they're working on sustainable, uh, mobility issues, uh, still Greece unfortunately is, um, far behind from the rest of Europe regarding, uh, sustainable mobility. So I think that, uh, because of the fact that the CITAs community is such a strong one and to, and, and it's so dedicated, uh, I think that, uh, it can bring a great, uh, value to the Greek cities. Of course, the cities need to be dedicated as well, <laugh>, because nothing can happen on its own. Uh, but if you take advantage of the community, you can do great things and you can gain a lot of knowledge during the way. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:46 Yeah, Yeah. Absolutely. Do you have something to add there? Cosmos? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:06:48 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I would like to, to other line that cys, um, came to Greece, uh, in order not to replace or to compete the existing organizations that were involved and are still involved in sustainable mobility, meaning that we're not playing the role of a research center or a consultancy, or we're not trying to replace the, the public, uh, let's say organizations', authorities. Um, our role is focused on, uh, raising awareness, capacity building, uh, supporting, uh, the municipalities to, to understand, to plan and to implement sustainable mobility measures. Uh, we can assist and we, we do that, uh, the ministries in the adaptation of the legislation, legislation framework. And of course, uh, funding is one of our major, uh, activities. We're trying to, to support the local authorities to attract funding or to, to support the, uh, funding organizations, to create funding programs. Uh, I think one of the best examples for this, it's, uh, or I think our first initiative that it was to propose to the Ministry of Environment and, uh, uh, uh, energy, uh, to create a huge funding program for U Peace and Greece. And I think this is one of the major milestones that, uh, related to the development of sustainable mobility in this country. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:08:22 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, do you think that's one of the main things that the C Net has brought to, like, uh, the overall goals of sustainable urban mobility? Or would there be other things that you think it contributes to? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:08:39 Uh, of course, sustainable mobility is, uh, in the core of our interest and activity, but sustainable mobility is not, uh, an island in the ocean. Uh, I mean, we have the sustainable energy, which is a topic completely connected to sustainable mobility, it's urban generation. Uh, other issues, environmental issues, uh, social, uh, inclusion, uh, various things that, uh, sustainable mobility should be connected and degraded in a, in a broader, uh, uh, effort to, to, to, to, to help cities become, uh, sustainable, uh, uh, in a, you know, in a more integrated way. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:09:22 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So integration into the other systems as well. Um, yeah, I think that's really important. And, um, I, I was actually privileged enough to visit the C net forum that you put on last year, um, in Athens. Um, and I wonder if maybe Catina, maybe you can talk a little bit about, um, how it went, What was the forum and what are the plans for the future? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:09:48 I think that it, besides of course, what Kuzma says about said about, uh, what Stephen have achieved, uh, I think it's, uh, one of our proudest moments, <laugh>, because it was, um, it happened during December, uh, 2021, and while the pandemic was still ongoing and a lot of countries had restrictions, uh, but we did it and we did it in a hybrid way, and we managed to have, uh, around two, uh, 220, uh, participants on site. And if you add up the, the online participants, the number goes higher. Uh, so it was, I think, a great success. And it's not only in my point of view, but what, uh, what our members told to us. Um, it was great to, to have more than, uh, 150 representative of, uh, representatives of organizations, of different organizations. So that's also a very huge, uh, achievement in, in our first conference to, to manage to have this kind of numbers. And, uh, we're very glad to, to be able to do that again. And it most likely will happen during, uh, 2023, uh, but, but not, um, in winter or in Natum Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:21 <laugh> summer in Greece. Sounds nice. Summer in Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:11:23 Greece will be great. And, uh, of course it will be a great opportunity for more participants to come and to join not only our conference, but, uh, Greece in general. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:33 Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, and I, you touched on the members, of course, the cities, so we can't, um, not talk about the cities. Um, we also, in the urban mobility days, one of your cities actually won the transformation award as well, right? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:11:50 Of course, the city of Reon, and we are very proud of them. They're doing such an amazing job on sustainable mobility issues. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:11:59 And, uh, and of course, uh, uh, and the finalist, the finalist, uh, this year was also Joran in a city of Joran, which is my birthplace, Oh, not, not my birth, my origin place. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:12:12 Ah, your hometown <laugh>. Not exactly ok, <laugh>, but, uh, from, from around there, you have roots there. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:12:19 Yes, I have roots. Okay. I have roots and I'm very right for this. Uh, but, uh, there are also, uh, other awards that the Greek cities, uh, have been, have been awarded, uh, during the, the previous months and years, uh, meaning that, um, the, in, uh, Hira and also very, uh, were among the finalists of the climate neutral, uh, award of CITAs, uh, Rayo, uh, was awarded the, the first award for the Road Road safety, uh, of the European Mobility Week, uh, campaign. And, uh, there are also other awards, uh, during the previous years. And, um, I think it's also very important that, uh, two, uh, uh, very, uh, successful mayors are, uh, are getting involved in the, in the c Cita political Advisory Committee. Uh, and I'm talking about the, the vice chair of cpac, uh, Greg Koans, and of course, the, uh, the, the achiever mayor of Reino, uh, yo Nikes Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:34 Quite some accomplishments from the Greek cities. What do you think are the determining factors in, um, if a Greek city is kind of making those transformations? Is it the political support behind them? Is it, what do you think determines their success? Mm-hmm. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:13:51 <affirmative>, I think always a success, um, is based on a combination of factors. Uh, of course, it's very important that, uh, to have, to have a major, uh, that, uh, he has the, the political will to change things mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and to communicate this, uh, this struggle. Uh, but except for the mayor, it's very important to have a team in, in house, the municipality. And, uh, all the cities that I mentioned have a very good team, uh, of permanent, uh, staff that are dedicated to sustainable mobility and sustainability in general. And, um, the third key is to have, um, a very good team, um, uh, coming from universities, consultancies, and the other, uh, organizations of the local, um, area or wider. And I think, uh, that also all these cities, uh, have, have this, uh, have this factor. So these three factors are very important, uh, to have a, a success increase. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:03 Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I think those are factors, of course, that are, um, across the board in Europe as well. Um, I think, yeah, as, as Greek cities, I, I've seen a lot of involvement in the Greek cities, and I also, of course owe that. I think a lot of that owes to your involvement with them as well, in getting them more involved as well. Um, so yeah. Uh, congratulations also to the cities. Um, now we talk a lot about, you know, of course we want to congratulate, and I talk about a lot of successes. Um, now I would never ask you to name a city or think, um, or, or a specific project or anything, But I also don't want to, um, skip over the fact that you, you've probably also experienced, uh, I don't like to call them failures, but maybe lessons learned along the way. Um, so do you have a time when you were maybe working with the city or something didn't go as planned, Uh, maybe in a project or with a city? Um, and what happened and what was the lesson learned? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:16:08 I think that we're facing failures, uh, in our everyday life. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:16:12 Yeah. <laugh>, Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:16:13 You can't have successes without, uh, failures as well. And usually you learn more, more with failures than with successes. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:16:21 Yeah. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:16:22 That's usually how it goes. But, um, I think that Kosmas Anagnostopoulos would answer that because I'm a very pessimistic person, and if I start to talk about the failures, we can be here for days. <laugh>, Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:16:35 I think, um, uh, an occasion that, uh, combines at the same time, failures and, uh, success is the, is the u p, uh, program in Greece. Uh, we have supported more than 14 organizations, uh, to develop the u p to communicate it, to prepare, uh, the tenders. Um, not more than 50% of them succeeded to, to elaborate the u p, to finalize it, to adopt it, and start implementing. Um, I want to underline that LA one of our, uh, uh, core members is the first sitting Greece that, um, elaborated in n b before it was trend, and now already implementing the measures, which are great and really transforming the city. This is a total success, of course, including a lot of failures, but they know, uh, what kind of failures, uh, they were, and I think they're solving, uh, step by step all the, uh, problems. They're, uh, so they can have the, the final success. Success. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:17:47 Yeah, That's a good model. Um, and just for our listeners, in case you're not so involved in urban mobility, it's, uh, su mps are sustainable urban mobility plans, um, which of course, uh, are required now by a lot of, uh, if cities want to get involved in European projects, for example, the commission is actually requiring that to get involved. Um, but yeah, it's always a question on if they actually, of course, you can write as much as you want, but if you actually carry it out and follow through with it, um, of course that's the defining steps for them as well. Um, so what do you think, uh, what do you think is unique about Greek challenges for cities? Um, I, I'm just wondering, you know, a lot of our listeners will be, uh, sitting in other places, um, and, and also relating to a lot of the challenges that you speak about, But I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about what do you think is unique to, to the Greek challenges? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:18:49 I would say that if Greece has something to export at this moment, uh, regarding sustainable mobility, it's the Greek islands mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because it's a very, uh, specific, uh, location, a specific situation, uh, that you have, uh, municipalities that you have, uh, destinations that during the winter, uh, they, they have a very, uh, what's say small population, you cannot, uh, uh, say that it is, it is an urban population, but during the summer, this, uh, population becomes quite bigger. And it is then an urban population with urban needs, but without urban infrastructure and urban services, though. So this is a unique case that, uh, uh, it is, uh, you can, you can, uh, experience the situation in Greece, uh, even when you're a tourist during summer. Um, this is not very common in other European countries. Yeah. But, uh, still they, there are European, a lot of European islands, and this is a, a specific work, I would say, scientific work that we're doing, uh, in the framework of c disciples to develop, uh, a practitioner briefing. And after that, a complete topic guide about, uh, how to plan the sustainable mobility, uh, in the European Islands, and, uh, how to, uh, how to transform and adapt the u p methodology and approach into a sustainable island mobility plan approach. Mm-hmm. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:20:28 <affirmative>. Yeah. That's very interesting. On, on that translation to the island context. Um, so now I come to the part where I also can give you the open floor if you want it. Um, either one of you to talk about, maybe a topic that we didn't touch on, Um, something that you think is very important for our audience to know about, um, C net Greece, Cypress, also about the, the cities that you work with. Um, anything along those lines. So I gladly give you the floor. Would you like the floor Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:21:01 Always Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:02 <laugh>. <laugh>. Good to hear. Good to hear. Um, yeah, go ahead. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:21:09 Okay. Um, I will start like with a little fun fact again. <laugh>, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:14 I like the shacks. <laugh>. Yeah. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:21:17 Uh, Cyprus managed in its first years, uh, to bring, uh, to cnet to the CITAs community, uh, more than 67 new Greek members. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:32 Wow. Yeah. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:21:33 Which, uh, translate to, uh, 22% increase of the CTUs community, which is Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:42 A huge thing. That's that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:21:46 So, yeah, this is also something we are also very proud of, and let's hope that we can also bring even more in the next, uh, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:55 Year. Yeah. Cuz they can get the added benefit of having you all to translate, you know, the CITAs missions into the local context and local language, and then they can reap the benefits of also having that European connection at the same time. So yeah. Very important. Uh, Cosmos, you look like you have something to say. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:22:13 Um, when someone asks me, what, what is the contribution of C degrees CYS in Greece and Cyrus mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, from the year of its, uh, establishment until now, I can prove, and I say that Etic Disciples is responsible for the, uh, for the support and for the, uh, involvement of more than 40 Greek and secret cities in, uh, eu, uh, events, activities, funds, projects, and so on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think this is a contribution that it is important. It's something that there, there's not other organization in Greece working, uh, uh, in that way and filling this, this kind of gaps. So this is more important for me. And of course, we can say that we have already, uh, participated and get involved in EU projects as an organizations, not only CITAs projects, uh, indirect med projects. It's, uh, a program that we, we love to collaborate. And, um, other topic topics like sustainable tourism. It's a very hot topic, uh, in Greece and, uh, closely related to sustainable mobility. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think that there is a contribution and we, we, we love and we're very happy to, to see the results day by day. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:42 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I think, think it's, um, I, I think the numbers also speak for themselves when you, when you say the, the contributions. But I also think, um, there's, what, what's looking ahead though? Like, what, what do you plan to scale that up even more? Um, what are your goals for the coming year or two or five or 10? I guess you can answer that however you'd like. <laugh>. Mm-hmm. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:24:09 <affirmative>. I think our vision is to become, um, not not only a cities network, but, uh, a sustainable mobility hub in, uh, in Greece, in meaning to bring together in the same table, uh, cities, uh, ministries, the private sector, the universities mm-hmm. <affirmative> the startups, youth, and to discuss as they did during the first Seven Degrees Cyprus forum. So to discuss how they can collaborate, how they can develop synergies mm-hmm. <affirmative> and push things, uh, further, faster, uh, more successfully. Um, in this framework, we, we, we hope that we will manage to transform our, uh, Signal Disciples, Cypress Forum to a, to a regional somehow Cita event. Mm. Uh, bringing, uh, people and organizations from the whole Mediterranean and Bcan area, uh, to discuss and to meet, to exchange experiences with the Greek and secret cities. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:25:23 Yeah. Big goals. I love all those stakeholder engagement. I think it's very, very important. We did something similar when we were working, um, uh, with Belfast as well, bringing all the stakeholders around us, uh, the same table to make a common agenda. And I think the impact of that is monumental in years to come. Um, so yeah. Anything else you want to say before we move on to our fun sections? I Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:25:48 Would just like to add, uh, to what Kama said, that it's because we do love what we are doing, and we want to see a change actually happen happening. Uh, we don't just want to bring all those people together to just talk. We, we actually want to see them move things forward and to actually do things because okay, we can talk, uh, for hours and for days and for years, maybe nothing ever happens, but we actually want to see something happen and we actually want to see something happen, something different in, in the different direction from what the Greek cities used to, to do until now Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:30 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So disruption in, in the normal status quo. Yeah. That's very important also. Um, good. All good to move on. All right. So, um, I think you know what's coming. So we now have a segment, um, it's a new segment called Dual bobble trivia. Dual bobble trivia. Let the bobble battle begin. Let's see who will be able to answer all the questions the other one has prepared. Um, so first Catrina, you will ask Cosmos, uh, your questions and then we will switch. Okay. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:27:11 Okay. Okay, great. Uh, so my, my questions are more, uh, generic, so let's, That's okay. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:18 That's Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:27:18 Good. Kosmas, uh, knows your stuff, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:21 <laugh>, Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:27:21 And if he's truly an expert, <laugh>. Uh, so, um, Kuzma, we are from Greece and we are very famous about our islands. How many islands does, uh, Greece have? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:27:35 How, uh, I think it's estimated that Greece is home to up to 6,000 islands in islands, but only around 200 of them, uh, are being inhabited. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:47 So 6,000 total, 200 inhabited. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:27:52 Oh, he does know his stuff. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:54 <laugh>. Okay, next question. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:27:57 So while we're talking about dial in Greece, we connect that immediately to the tourists. So how many tourists do we have? It's year? What is going on there? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:28:10 Mm. I think you should know that more tourists visit Greece every year than the entire Greek population, meaning that over 17 million tourists are visiting Greece. It's year huge number, Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:28:24 Not just huge <laugh>, Maybe more than we can hang it. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:28 <laugh> 17 million, Is that what you said? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:28:32 Yes, 17. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:35 17. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 17. But 17 is still a big, big number. So was he correct? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:28:40 Uh, I think so, Yeah. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:41 Okay. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:28:42 From my knowledge, yes. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:43 From my, I'm gonna have to Google these later and, and see how accurate they are, but No, I, I trust you. I trust you. So, Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:28:51 No, please do. And, uh, if we are wrong, uh, I think that you can write that, that on the comments. <laugh> Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:57 <laugh>. Yeah. Show notes correction here. Um, no, uh, Kosmas Anagnostopouloss, um, please ask your questions that you prepared Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:29:05 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So tell me, Karina, um, according to our research, research, how many citizens of, uh, uh, Greek urban areas declare that they face mobility issues? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:29:20 This one, I know <laugh> and, uh, yeah. Because of our u nmps and, uh, all the surveys that we are doing, uh, we have estimated that, uh, from 20% until 30% of the Greek people, uh, they declare that they have an ability issue. Mm-hmm. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:41 <affirmative> 20 to 30%. 20 Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:29:43 To 30%, which is, uh, a very huge number. And it's not something to to, to not considering it. Yeah. Yeah. Considering quite seriously Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:53 <laugh>. Yeah. Good, good to know. Uh, next question. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:29:56 My second question is about the Greek politicians and especially them who are leading the c net political advisory committee. Do you know them? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:30:07 Of course. I do <laugh> and we most, uh, with most of them, uh, I talk quite often <laugh>. So yes, we have, um, MS too, which is our president of, uh, our civic net park. Uh, we have Mr. Kapos from, uh, the city, from the municipality of Vinas. I forgot to tell that Mrs. Tu is from the city of IGOs Demetrios. Both of them are in the region of fatca, which is, uh, the, let's say the metropolitan and, uh, city of Fens fence. Uh, we also have two members that they're outside of Athens. Uh, it's Mr. S from the city of Larissa. And, uh, Mr. Gregor from the city of Verium. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:30:53 Very good. Very good. A a plus. And thank you very much. Very good. So now we will ask a question that we ask every guest. I'm very curious actually, Rina, how you'll answer this differently this time, <laugh>. But, um, it's a question that we say to you in your view, your perspective. What is a smart city? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:31:20 I don't want to change. Um, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:31:23 No, it's okay. It's okay to change. It's okay. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:31:24 I truly believe that usually when we are talking about smart cities, um, we instantly connected to innovation, to technology, to stuff like that. But, uh, I don't think that, uh, a smart city, uh, is only that. Of course, we are living in the 21st century. Of course, we are going to have, uh, new technologies. Of course we want innovation. But a smart city, I think that it's a city that can actually listen to its citizens and to be able to address, uh, the issues and the problems that, that its citizens, uh, face. Yeah. And, uh, to, to be able to actually do something about that, even if in some cases it could, uh, be a solution of, uh, the, of an easiest solution actually, and not a technological one. Yeah. Yeah. We, we don't always, uh, need to rely on technology to solve every problem. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So for me, a smart city is a city that can distinguish, uh, these two things and to act accordingly. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:32 Yeah. Good answer. Uh, Cosmos, do you, uh, agree? Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:32:37 Surprising question. Uh, I agree about the technology part. Technology is a tool. I would say that, uh, smart city is a city that becomes sustainable climate, neutral, social, just, uh, in a lighter, quicker and cheaper way using the mode of placemaking movement. Tamlyn Shimizu 00:32:56 Ah, very good. Very concise and to the point, and very nice. So wonderful from both of you. And, um, yeah, this is, this is it. You made it through unscathed, um, <laugh>. So huge thanks to both of you for coming on. It's always a pleasure. As I mentioned, um, you even were brave enough to come on twice Katerina, so, um, good on you. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:33:20 Yeah. I'm not sure why I did that Tamlyn Shimizu 00:33:22 <laugh>. Cause it's so much fun, right? Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:33:25 No, it is. And um, for all of you that, uh, are listening to this podcast, if t approach you in order to do a podcast, please do. You're going to have so much fun. <laugh>, Tamlyn Shimizu 00:33:38 Yay. Yes. Say, I do say Yes. Say yes. Okay. Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much to both of you for coming on. Uh, yeah, thanks. It's been a pleasure. And, um, to all of our listeners, don't forget, you can always create a free account on Baba Smart cities.eu and you can find out more about smart city projects, solutions, implementations, and more. Um, so yeah. Thank you so much. Kosmas Anagnostopoulos 00:34:04 Thank you. Bye. Katerina Nikolopoulou 00:34:05 Thank you. Thank you for having us. Goodbye Tamlyn Shimizu 00:34:08 <laugh>. Goodbye. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.