Episode Transcript
Noak Westerberg 00:00:00 I mean, we had some really good and worthwhile reports on how the transport sector should transform to carbon neutrality. There, there were, you know, reports on that, but they were 2000 pages long. So what we've done is kind of boil it down. And I think that will be useful to other actors.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:24 Welcome to Smart in the City - The BABLE Podcast, I am your host Tamlyn Shimizu. And really at BABLE, we aim to connect the players in the smart city industry with high quality information and ideas through our platform and services. This podcast is really an extension of this goal and mission to drive the change for a better urban life. And today we are journey now to Sweden to speak to Noak Westerberg, who is a project manager at the Swedish climate policy council, working on the Panorama tool. Welcome.
Noak Westerberg 00:01:04 Thank you. It's my pleasure to be, um, I've been looking forward to this.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:08 Yeah. I'm excited to, uh, dig in a bit deeper and, um, yeah, speak a little bit more about what Panorama does and what your role is, but let's first break the ice a bit and maybe talk a bit about Sweden I'm, which by the way I I'm happened to be going to, um, on Tuesday, I'll be there.
Noak Westerberg 00:01:29 Really?
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:30 Yeah.<laugh>, I'll be in Gothenburg for the POLIS Conference and yeah, it's actually my first time going. So I'm, I'm a little bit excited.
Noak Westerberg 00:01:38 Oh, you should be <laugh>.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:40 Yeah. Are you, where whereabouts are you from?
Noak Westerberg 00:01:43 Uh, I'm from, uh, uh, a region called Värmland, uh, initially, which is quite close to Norway. Uh, but now I live in Eskilstuna, which is, uh, about an hour outside of Stockholm. Uh, so that, that, that's where I work Stockholm at the minute.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:58 Yeah. Lovely. I haven't, I don't think I planned to go on that side yet, but, uh, looking forward to it. So, uh, <laugh> well, I guess this segment is called, let me embarrass myself a bit because, but I am a complete beginner at Swedish, as you know, probably. And I'm just wondering if you can teach me a couple words <laugh> sure. For example, how can I say something like livable city or something along those lines?
Noak Westerberg 00:02:26 Oh, uh, I think, I think a word that we use, uh, quite a lot is "God beboelig miljö". That's a fun one.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:35 <laugh>
Noak Westerberg 00:02:36 It's "Good livable environment". Or as you say in German, um, I like that word, "Umwelt".
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:45 Okay. We we'll give it a shot. "God". And then one more time, please. Can you, can you repeat the <laugh>
Noak Westerberg 00:02:56 "God beboelig miljö".
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:59 "Beboelig miljö".
Noak Westerberg 00:03:00 Perfect. You got it.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:02 Okay. <laugh> so
Noak Westerberg 00:03:03 Now you got a flashy word.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:05 Okay. Yeah. <laugh> thank you. Um, so now I have, uh, something to say to the people when I journey up there <laugh> I might want to learn like, hello, how are you first? But, uh <laugh>. Yeah, thank you. Cool. So yeah, let's, let's dig in here a bit further. Uh, I really want to know more about your work and, uh, can you walk us through really what Panorama is? Um, what does it do?
Noak Westerberg 00:03:35 Sure. Uh, so the Panorama tool, it's a, it's a visualisation tool, uh, that that shows, uh, kind of Sweden's journey towards, uh, net zero emissions by 2045, uh, which is our national climate target. Uh, so the idea is basically to, to break down lots of heavy and, uh, hard-to-penetrate PDF reports. Uh, I'm sure you've read a few yourselves. Uh, I know I have, uh, and I mean, there, there's, there's usually quite a lot of interesting and hot information in there, but it's usually buried, you know, deep within lots of, you know, hard to read sentences and, and figures and tables and stuff. So what we wanted to do, uh, is to approach this in a different way and kind of dig the most important pieces of information out of these heavy reports and present it in a way, uh, that builds, uh, a wholesome picture of, uh, what the transition could look like, uh, in terms of, uh, what are the, uh, the transitional, uh, solutions, uh, to decrease our, our, uh, emissions from different activities.
Noak Westerberg 00:04:48 Uh, so for example, if you look at the transport sector, we have, uh, you know, roughly 70 or 80 even percent of the emissions coming from, from car journeys. Uh, so, so the, the pro here is that we use cars for transportation and they run on fossil fuels, right? Yeah. So we, we can do this, uh, in different ways. We can choose different modes of transportation, like, uh, public transportation, walking, or biking. Uh, we can also choose to, to travel less, uh, like you and me are doing here. Uh, we're having a video chat, right. Uh, we wouldn't be doing this podcast probably before the pandemic. So, uh, so that's a pretty cool thing. Uh, and we can also shift, you know, the energy that we use for, for the cars, uh, if we still need to, to use cars. Uh, so we have, you know, electricity or biofuels, uh, as viable options.
Noak Westerberg 00:05:42 So, so what we've we, we started out with was, uh, to kind of map out these, uh, transitional solutions, uh, for the transport sector, uh, initially, uh, and we found that, okay, uh, well, this, this seems to be doable. Uh, so, uh, we also applied, uh, indicators to, to kind of give a, give some insights to how is it going right now? Uh, how is the share of public transportation, uh, increasing or decreasing over time? Uh, uh, so we thought that was quite interesting, but the next part that we wanted to also showcase was, uh, what kind of policies and, uh, and other measures are in place, uh, to, you know, increase the transition pace, uh, and also, uh, what, what, you know, suggestions are out there from NGO or from, uh, from, uh, uh, agencies or, uh, you know, uh, other other stakeholders, uh, also the, the financial sector and, uh, the businesses throughout Sweden.
Noak Westerberg 00:06:51 Uh, so we, we found that, that it was quite a useful for the transport sector and decided to, to go, go on and do the rest as well. Uh, so we've been on that journey since 2018. And when I say we, uh, that includes, uh, the climate policy council and the Swedish environmental protection agency, uh, and the Swedish en energy agency. Uh, so we've done, we've done this in collaboration, three, uh, three different governmental agencies, uh, and also a startup company called climate view. Uh, and that, they're the ones that have been develop developing the, the software for this platform that we use. Uh, so, so it's been a kind of, uh, public private, uh, cooperative, uh, journey, uh, going on now some three years. Uh, and, uh, now we have a tool that, uh, showcases, I think somewhere 70 or 80 different transitions throughout different sectors, uh, as well as, uh, I think 250 something, uh, measures and policies, uh, and suggestions, uh, that are, uh, applied to different transitions. Uh, so it, it, it gives you a, a, a kind of rough map on, on, uh, uh, on how the transition could look and, uh, where we, where we're standing right now.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:08:17 Yeah. You know, when I first saw the tool, I was really blown away with how comprehensive it was and how much of a, a nice holistic view it gave of so many different sectors of, um, so many options on how to reach those targets. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so my question for you having mapped it all and having that comprehensive view, um, do you have like a, a it, a feeling about the future, or do you feel, um, like those targets are reachable?
Noak Westerberg 00:08:48 Yeah, I mean, I, I do in, in some, uh, in some areas we can see that the transition is actually going faster than most people thought a few just a few years ago. So, uh, the electrification of, of the personal transportation, uh, is quite a quite rapidly increasing in Sweden. Now, in fact, in October, uh, I think half of the cars that were sold were, were chargeable cars. Uh, so their, uh, electric vehicles or plug-in hybrid electrics. Uh, so that transition has been going quicker than, than a lot of, uh, stakeholders, uh, thought. Um, and in other areas, uh, maybe the transition is a little bit slower, uh, but, but, you know, the transition is not necessarily a linear curve either. Uh, in some instances say, uh, I mean, the iron production in Sweden stands for roughly 10% of our, uh, emissions. Uh, so that's, you know, 10% that's a lot.
Noak Westerberg 00:09:52 Uh, and you don't, you don't just shift that, uh, uh, linearly by doing small incremental steps to decrease the emissions. Uh, but you actually have to shift the entire process that's used for, for manufacturing iron, uh, and there's two, uh, two projects that are currently working on implementing that in Sweden. Now it's, uh, the Hybrid Project, uh, which is a collaboration between SSAB, LKAB, and, uh, Swiss Steel, uh, instead of using coal, uh, and they are, they have actually started, uh, uh, the manufacturing in, in their demo plant. And, uh, uh, they have customers that want to, you know, purchase this, uh, climate neutral iron, uh, and, uh, the first trucks have actually been, uh, manufactured, uh, by, I believe it's Volvo that, that have manufactured trucks from this. So, uh, you know, it, it, it's, it's, they've proven that this concept is doable, uh, but, but the, the big steps are still ahead of us. They need to, you know, shift their entire, uh, facilities, uh, and it, this will, you know, happen in different steps. Uh, and there's also a, a new competitor, uh, starting, uh, uh, iron production using hydrogen. Uh, now we also should mention, uh, they call H2 Green Steel. Uh, so you, you can tell that, you know, O other, other actors are also, uh, you know, catching on. And I think this is something that, that we'll see a lot of, uh, internationally as well. So it's a good thing.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:34 Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Um, and we, we also, BABLE also works with both the public and the private sector, and you just mentioned also, you know, um, both public and private entities. Um, so how, uh, how do you see public entities using the tool and how do you see also the private entities using the tool?
Noak Westerberg 00:11:56 Yeah, so, uh, we, we do get, uh, quite a bit of feedback from, from, uh, users within the, the public sector. Uh, for instance, uh, I, I had a call from, uh, the transport analysis, uh, agency, uh, a few we weeks ago, and they have this project where they need to map, uh, uh, Swedens transition within the transport sector and, uh, provide kind of a, uh, a roadmap for, for the, the government to, to act upon. Uh, and they said that it'd been using, uh, Panorama, uh, uh, you know, a starting at point to get an idea of, uh, you know, what's in place and how is it going? Uh, so, so it, it serves its purpose for, for agencies. And I suppose, replaces the, the need to read all these PDF reports, because I mean, there were actually a few people. Yeah. That that's the idea. And I suppose there were actually a few people reading those PDF reports, uh, you know, regardless of what you think. Uh, I'm one of them, like I said, <laugh>, I think, uh, so far, uh, the interest from the private sector, uh, has not been as prominent as we could hope. Uh, so we we're working on that and we've, uh, recently introduced ourselves a bit on, on social media and, you know, doing, uh, what, what's it called? Um, uh, well, we paid to, to get advertisements on LinkedIn and, and stuff like that too, to raise
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:34 And you're doing the podcast.
Noak Westerberg 00:13:35 Sure. This is also one of those, uh, one of those things I want to spread the word. Uh, so, so we, we already see a bit of, of effect on it. I think this, this autumn we've had, uh, twice the number of, uh, of users per week, uh, compared to in the spring. So, uh, well, that's something <affirmative>
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:13:56 Yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's, uh, that's great. And is there any way, like for private, how, uh, private people that you want to involve more, is there any way for them to collaborate with you or to get more involved?
Noak Westerberg 00:14:11 Sure. So we have this board of editor, uh, consisting of myself as the project manager, uh, and also representatives from, uh, the environmental protection agency and the energy agency. And, uh, uh, we, we all, uh, we all look out for, for what's going on out there. That's, you know, part of our, uh, of our work. Uh, so a few weeks, for instance, I got a, an email from, uh, a guy, uh, random guy, I dunno who it was <laugh>, but he said, have you been looking into geothermal energy and how that can be applied, you know, within the district heating? And I said, well, uh, we've, we've probably thought about it, but we haven't really looked into it. So I set up a meeting with, uh, St1, which is one of the biggest, uh, fuel suppliers in Sweden. Uh, cuz I know they've had done, they they've had quite a lot of research done on this, uh, in Finland, uh, and also in Sweden to some extent, uh, do you know, to, to get some information on, um, what do you think the, the outlooks for, for this transition is, uh, you know, does it have potential and if so, how big is that potential, uh, you know, to gather some information from, from the, the private sector on, at what they think the outlook like, so that's, you know, just one of those examples of how we work, uh, together, uh, with, uh, with, with the private sector to, you know, in increase the, the quality of, of the content upon Ramma.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:15:47 Yeah. Wonderful. Um, and where do you see the project going in the future across, across Europe, across the world in every city? Um, do you see it in that large of a scale or what do you see for the future?
Noak Westerberg 00:15:59 Yeah, well, that's a good question. I think it would, it would be interesting to get, get a reply from Climate View as well, cuz they're, they're the software provider, you know? Uh, but, uh, yeah, I mean this, this is that that could well be, uh, quite useful for, for citizen municipal as well. Uh, we see a great interest of that in Sweden, but also in, in other countries. Uh, I know that climate view are launching themselves in, uh, uh, Germany and the UK and also in the us. Uh, and, uh, I think also in Asia, uh, so their idea is, you know, this tool, uh, should not just provide, uh, a means to present a roadmap, but also a tool, uh, that can help you create the roadmap, uh, uh, by incorporating, uh, uh, agent modeling, uh, for all these transition elements or transitional solutions.
Noak Westerberg 00:17:00 Uh, so you can, uh, uh, kind of make your own, uh, scenario or your own roadmap on how to transform to a carbon neutral society or whatever your climate targets are. Uh, and their idea is also to, to incorporate, uh, other effects such as, uh, you know, health, uh, and also financial effects. So, uh, if you look at, for instance, uh, uh, investing in electric cars, uh, right, uh that's I mean, it's, it's a bigger investment from the start because you have, you know, the car that costs probably a little bit more at this point still, uh, than, than a regular car. And you also have to think about the infrastructure for charging and stuff like that. Uh, but, but in the end game, uh, it will be, uh, financially feasible because, uh, you know, the, the fuel is so expensive that, you know, it works out, everyone knows that now, but their idea is that the tools should provide this, um, financial report on different transitions and, and how they will, uh, how they will impact, uh, the budgets, uh, and stuff like that. So that's, uh, that's quite an interesting development for, for many, uh, cities, I think.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:18:19 Yeah, it, it's also been quite interesting for us to see in our work because, you know, we've, we've done some of this road mapping with cities, um, notably in, and the city of Belfast, for example, um, where we did a smart district roadmap with them. And, um, it's so crucial that the cities are really getting all the information and really being provided with all these tools to really, uh, see where they progress in the future. Um, and to actually see implementable steps, right. Not just these goals are great, right. 2045 mm-hmm <affirmative>, but really how exactly do are we going to get there? Yeah. And for every city it's going to be different for every country. It's going to be different how they actually get there. So, um, yeah, really important to have all this in front of us at this time. So
Noak Westerberg 00:19:06 I think so.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:07 Yeah. <laugh> um, and are there really any, I guess negative consequences or maybe barriers to using Panorama?
Noak Westerberg 00:19:17 Uh, oh, that's a tough question. I mean, <laugh>, we we've, I, I, I like to think that we've, we've been doing the hard work, uh, yeah. You know, developing these models or for how, uh, you know, the impacts of different, uh, transitions can be quantified and measured. Uh, and we've also identified, you know, what are, what are the central, uh, transitional elements that, that are required? So I think when, when you get to the table now, uh, and want to implement something like the, uh, you're, you're at a, you're at a better point <laugh> than, than we were starting out, uh, you know, three years ago, uh, what we had were, you know, these, uh, reports, I mean, we had some really, uh, I mean, some really good and worthwhile reports on how the transport sector should transform to carbon neutrality. There, there were, you know, reports on that, but they were 2000 pages long.
Noak Westerberg 00:20:20 Uh, so, uh, what we've done is kind of boil it down and I think, uh, that will, that will be useful to, to other actors. And I suppose you do have to have a little bit of dating. You have to have, uh, a little bit of, uh, uh, you know, basic knowledge of, of what your city looks like. Uh, if you, if you want to implement this as a city, uh, so you need to know your population. Obviously you need to know what businesses you have, uh, what kind of activities are undertaken in your town, how much, uh, traveling is done and how much is is done by cars, bus, trains, et cetera, et cetera, you know, all, all these things. Uh, but, uh, what Climate View has found is that, uh, you can, uh, you can make a pretty good assumption based on, uh, the national, uh, mean, or average economic activities.
Noak Westerberg 00:21:17 So for instance, for Sweden, if you apply, uh, the general, uh, the general activities based per capita on, on a, a smaller municipality or something like that, you'll find that it's actually pretty close to, to what the situation looks like there. So we're not that different, you know, we're not that unique. I mean, some, some, some citizens would be unique for instance, uh, UX sun in, in the county where I live, uh, they have, they happen to have an iron manufacturing, uh, facility. Uh, so, you know, that kind of throws a shadow on everything else they do, because nothing else is even worth looking at if you compare it to that, because it's such a huge point of, of, uh, emissions. Uh, so I mean, there, there are, uh, there are circumstances where, where it's, uh, definitely important to, to look, to look into the actual data, but, uh, you know, the, the challenges are, are pretty much equal, I'd say. Uh, so yeah, yeah,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:22:22 Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks for giving us all that insight. And I'm sure, um, if people have more questions as well, they can reach out to you directly. We'll link all that in the show notes, as well as the tool, everyone should have a, a nice look around it. It's quite comprehensive. And I really enjoyed getting to know it a bit better as well. So, um, and with that being said, if it's all right with you, we can se go into a little bit of a fun segment, roll with the punches, answer this or that questions quickly, and with your first instincts.
Noak Westerberg 00:23:00 Right.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:01 You can explain your answer afterwards though. So don't worry. <laugh>,
Noak Westerberg 00:23:05 <laugh>, I'll try my best. Sounds fun. Okay.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:07 Ready? Okay. Gothenburg or Malmö?
Noak Westerberg 00:23:12 Ooh, Malmö, I think.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:14 Okay. Uh, wind energy or solar
Noak Westerberg 00:23:19 Wind
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:20 <laugh> planning or implementing,
Noak Westerberg 00:23:24 Implementing.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:26 Okay, good. Do you want to give any explanation for your answers? <laugh>? Uh,
Noak Westerberg 00:23:31 I don't know the thing with, with Gothenburg is that it always rains there <laugh>
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:36 Okay. Something to look forward to.
Noak Westerberg 00:23:37 And when I've been in Malmö, it's been sunny and it's been warm and it's been nice and they have the best Falafel in Sweden.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:46 Oh, to that's good to know. Okay.
Noak Westerberg 00:23:47 Yeah, definitely. And with wind power, I suppose. I, I, I used to sail a lot when I was younger, so I've always liked, you know, wind it's always fascinated me.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:23:59 Cool. Yeah. Um, and why do you like you like to implement more than plan or is that just, uh, you think it's more effective?
Noak Westerberg 00:24:07 Um, I'm one of those people that get restless when I feel I don't do anything. Uh mm-hmm <affirmative> so I, I really like to get to work rather than plan. And, and I'm much more of a, of a, you know, plan as you go, uh, kind of person, I suppose. That's why I first got into this Panorama project. Uh, it was kind of my first glimpse into the world of agile projects, uh, cuz this was all done, you know, in very quick sprints and we, uh, you know, developed ideas and went to, you know, um, development and coding and uh, to products or, or implementations within, you know, weeks. Uh, so I really enjoyed that way of working, uh, rather than, you know, spending five months, uh, planning and uh, you know, looking at process flow charts and you know, that just, I mean, I like that too. Uh, but it kind of bores me not to get anywhere, you know?
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:25:12 Yeah. It's a nice feeling to do stuff actually.
Noak Westerberg 00:25:15 Yeah. I feel like you're creating something. It's it's just the best thing I think.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:25:20 Yeah. Yeah. Good. Um, and so now we have one, uh, well really one question for you. Um, and it's a question that we're asking everyone. Okay. Um, and there's no right answer of course, because everyone has a different view. Um, but in your opinion, what is a smart city?
Noak Westerberg 00:25:39 Ooh, good question. I feel like I should have a really good answer to that. <laugh>
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:25:45 I always feel like I should and it change just every time I'm asked it, so.
Noak Westerberg 00:25:48 Right. I mean, it depends on your mood and how you got to work today or, you know, what your issues or struggles are at the minute, right? Yeah. But I think a smart city is, uh, a city that, uh, that, uh, has a, a clever way of, uh, provide the necessary, uh, things for people and, uh, the environment. So for instance, it should provide, uh, good, uh, reliable, clean, uh, efficient transportation, like public transportations that are mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, in a nice and affordable and, uh, don't pollute, uh, and it should also, you know, be possible to walk or bike. Uh, cuz I mean, those are heavily underused means of transportation in Sweden. I think, uh, I love biking myself, uh, and it, it's also a good idea to have, um, to have a good, uh, way of heating your, your houses. Uh, I mean that's obviously a big part here in Sweden because it's cold half of the year <laugh> so, uh,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:58 You know, what time is your sunrise and sunset right now? Oh,
Noak Westerberg 00:27:01 Has the sun rise? Yeah. Yeah. It, it has, it does rise somewhere after nine now. And I think now at four o'clock it's, it's pretty much dark
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:13 <laugh>. Yeah. That's uh,
Noak Westerberg 00:27:16 But it gets worse. For another month. Yeah. But that, the thing is it's just a smart city is a, is a city that does things cleverly and uh, I mean most importantly, I guess it allows people to thrive and be happy
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:31 Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think it's, it's all about, you know, using what we have and knowing when to use technology and when not to, I guess mm-hmm, <affirmative>,
Noak Westerberg 00:27:41 That's a good point.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:27:42 Um, I, but that also goes into the clever part that you said. I think just, um, having this holistic view of how we, uh, provide services to really make it all about the citizens and how they're thriving and functioning in life. So
Noak Westerberg 00:27:59 I think that's, that's the most boiled down kind of way I can express it.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:04 Good. <laugh>
Noak Westerberg 00:28:05 Provide what people need and do it cleverly.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:07 Yeah. <laugh> that's, that's a good wrap-up. I think that should be the, also the title of this episode or something.
Noak Westerberg 00:28:15 Sure. I don't mind
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:28:16 <laugh>. Yeah. So, uh, with that being said, I won't take up too much more of your time unless you have something else that you want to, uh, um, you hit on that you feel like we didn't get a chance to talk about now would be the time
Noak Westerberg 00:28:31 Oh, ah, you put me in the spot. Uh <laugh> well, no, I, I, I just, um, I, I think it's fun that, that this gets, uh, a bit of, uh, attraction internationally, uh, because, you know, initial, the Panorama project was aimed, uh, at the Swedish population and, and, you know, Swedish users, uh, and only just before this summer, I think we launched an English version, uh, of the tool. Uh, so it's, it's a fairly new thing that we have an English translation, uh, and we're happy to see that it gains a bit of interest. So for,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:06 Yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes in the future. Um, and yeah, thanks so much for your time to talk to us about it. I think it's a really, really interesting, uh, project and I invite everyone to go and take a look. Um, we'll also post about it on all of our channels as well, and make sure that, um, we're getting the word out about it as well. And to all of our listeners, if you want to learn more about projects and real life implementations in smart cities in Europe and beyond, you can find more information on bable-smartcities.eu and be part of our community by signing up for free. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
