Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome to Smart in the city, the BABLE podcast, where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
[00:00:21] Tamlyn Shimizu: I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu, and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
[00:00:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart in the City is brought to you by BABLE Smart Cities we enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at BABLE Smartcities EU.
[00:00:45] Tamlyn Shimizu: So welcome back to another episode. We're exploring more in the UK and diving into systemic approaches to digitalization and long term partnerships and much more with the city of Sunderland. It's a port city in northeast England and I'm really excited about this episode. As I already know, there will be a lot of really good key takeaways from this episode. So without further ado, I want to introduce you to the best person to talk to about smart cities in Sunderland, and her name is Liz St. Louis. She's the director of smart cities and enabling services at Sunderland City Council. Welcome, Liz.
[00:01:23] Liz St Louis: Thank you very much. Thank you.
[00:01:26] Tamlyn Shimizu: It's lovely to have you on. And when we were having our prep meeting, I was already getting so excited because you're so knowledgeable about so many of the topics and you've been doing so many, I guess, unique things in Sunderland. So I'm really excited for this episode. But so before we get into all of that, we like to warm up a little bit with a bit of a teaser question. So I want to ask you, outside of its practical applications, what's the most fun or whimsical use of technology you've seen in Sunderland? Smart city projects, or in general in the world, maybe?
[00:02:05] Liz St Louis: Oh, well, I think that'll have to be something that we did very recently, actually, which was one of our new iconic buildings that's being constructed at the moment, a culture house, which is a real center of curiosity. We actually created it in Minecraft, and the reason that we did that so is that we could align with our young people in the city, our children and young people. We could open a competition. We could get them involved in the creation of culture house, but through a medium which they love, which is Minecraft. So we opened a competition, asked them to design the new team space in Culture house within Minecraft. And actually just about three, four weeks ago, we held the outcome of that and we awarded some worthy winners from within that competition, and they actually get to see their design built in the real culture house, which of course they've designed in Minecraft. So that was really fun. And that was a bit of a kind of different way of using smart city technology.
[00:03:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: That's really cool. I've never heard of people using it for Minecraft before. Did people get really competitive?
[00:03:12] Liz St Louis: They really did. And some of the creativity that some of the young people showed was phenomenal. And we had entries from youngsters from five, six year olds all the way up through to teenagers. So it was great to see the array of designs that came through.
[00:03:26] Tamlyn Shimizu: Wonderful. I'll have to check that out more later also. That's very curious.
Would love to get to know also a little bit more about you now. What's your background? What led you to this role today?
Tell us a little bit more about yourself.
[00:03:42] Liz St Louis: Okay, well, I guess I've been. I've worked in local government a long time, over 35 years experience. It's great working in local government because you're so close to the residents of the city that you work for and so close to the coal field, so to speak. But within that experience, I've mainly driven kind of transformation programs using digital and data solutions. I guess I have a real passion for person centred design. Really putting people at the heart of things and really seeing that transformational change and the difference that technology can make. It's a real and measurable difference to be able to see.
[00:04:23] Tamlyn Shimizu: Incredible. 35 years, you said?
[00:04:26] Liz St Louis: I know.
[00:04:28] Tamlyn Shimizu: No, a lot. Yeah, lots of experience. I love it. So when we were talking earlier, you started talking about Sunderland's systematic approach to developing a smart city. Can you tell me more about that? Explain to the listeners what that is and how that's looked for you?
[00:04:49] Liz St Louis: Yeah, of course. We started our smart city journey now about five years ago. And when we did, we convened our partners across the city representing health, education and business sectors. We all came together in a workshop for a day and a half to really understand what it was that we in Sunderland needed from a smart city.
And that led us to really start to think about the model, to think about what was relevant for our locality, our geography, but also the challenges that were prevalent to us in Sunderland. And one of those big challenges was that nobody was coming to invest in the city off their own back. So we knew we needed to disrupt and we knew that we needed to do things differently. So we spent some time researching really thinking and we came up with our smart city model for us in Sunderland, which is really a four layer cake and the bottom layer for us is about ubiquitous connectivity. And that's a whole network of networks, everything from cellular technology to LoRaWAN technology to Wi Fi and where applicable, to private 5g networks, once we have that ubiquitous connectivity, that gives us the ability, and has given the ability since we've started to develop a layer to put a whole range of sensors, of devices, of applications on that sit on that technology, then to start to make that transformational difference. And from all of those applications and sensors, we move up to the third layer for us, which is our smart city operations center, we call it. That could be a CCtv control room, it could be an operative out in the field with a handheld device. But it's where all of that data from all of those sensors, all of those applications start to flow. And through that data we can do really detailed analysis and forward planning for our city and we can deliver a whole range of use cases. So for us, because we've built those layers, we have that connectivity, we have the ability to apply a whole raft of different devices and applications, we have that data layer. It really does allow us to be able to address all sorts of problems, all sorts of challenges, all sorts of opportunities, regardless of the vertical. The other element that wraps our program that's very important to us in Sunderland with our demographic is that no one and nowhere gets left behind through our journey. So the opportunities we create through our smart city journey, we want to make sure that we afford those opportunities to local people.
[00:07:16] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, I have a couple questions on that. It's really intriguing how you've really built this infrastructure, this underlying groundwork, laying this groundwork to really be successful in these initiatives.
First question, did you get inspiration for this model from other places, or how did this idea, I guess, come about?
[00:07:38] Liz St Louis: We did lots and lots of research in the early days from anywhere and everywhere, from cities across the world, from consultancies working in this space, from some of the operators working in this space, mobile network operators, etcetera. And I guess we took all of that and we went back to exactly what it was our partners were telling us about what they needed for the city of Sunderland. And we try to localise all of that learning and make it relevant to us, but throughout our journey, undoubtedly. And that's why podcasts such as this are so great and sites like yours, because it's all about learning from each other as we go.
[00:08:14] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, exactly. That's why I also want to ask, and I guess are you seeing this model become more common with cities across that you're talking to, or are there different approaches that you also really like, I think.
[00:08:28] Liz St Louis: I mean, we always kind of. We do quite a lot of show and tells and I guess people are always really interested with the model. I think people really get the model because it's simple and it's one diagram almost on a document, on a slide deck. So people really do get it. And I think, you know, we all need that underpinning foundation, that digital connectivity, to try, you know, to be able to build upon. I always say it's like a house without the foundation. You can't build the house without the underlying connectivity. You can't build the digital and data solutions. So I think everybody understands that. I think people have just taken different approaches. Some cities around the world, I think, are very lucky. The fibre operators, the mobile network operators, etcetera are going there because there's a competitive advantage to doing so. In a city like ours in Sunderland, we didn't have those market forces, so we had to do something very disruptive to be able to attract those digital infrastructure providers to the city.
[00:09:25] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very interesting. So you also mentioned in your last point about this, no one and nowhere is left behind this digital divide that we see happening as cities are digitalizing. Right. Going through these transformations, can you elaborate more on how you're addressing this digital divide and what specific measures are being implemented?
[00:09:48] Liz St Louis: Yeah, absolutely. It's really, really kind of dear to our hearts in Sunderland, as I say, we have some pockets of real deprivation and the digital divide is a real concern. So for us, in starting our program, we put the full time resource into working on digital inclusion initiatives and that's been really important to get the right resource behind it. We spent again some time researching and then we created our own digital inclusion strategy and action plan and really importantly, an action plan that we could hit the ground running. So we've kind of separated our approach into three areas and that's digital city, digital residents and digital workforce. So, and we look at initiatives in those areas. So for digital city, something like that is making sure that we can provide free Wi Fi across as many areas in the city as possible. We now have a really big free Wi Fi footprint in the city centre along one of our really busy beach areas.
But also, as we're redeveloping play parks, we put Wi Fi in as a matter of course. And also we've done some work recently equipping a number of our voluntary and community sector buildings. So things like that are really important to us in terms of citywide initiatives that enable people to get online and remove those barriers for residents.
Again, something like our digital hub programme, where we've now equipped 22 voluntary and community sector buildings at the heart of communities with next generation digital infrastructure. Again, back to that underpinning layer. And now we're providing all sorts of digital inclusion services. So free NPC's, free digital literacy training and all those centres are set up as go online centers, as data banks. So if people are eligible, they can go and get free SIM cards, et cetera, data cards. And we have a really extensive volunteering program in Sunderland where we have over 80, what we call Techmates, who are just volunteers who go around the hubs and sit with residents and help them get online and help them build confidence. So lots happening with the residents. Another thing that we do is every year we run an affordable broadband campaign and we're just doing our second year now. So as a city council, we pay people benefit who need support financially and we have over 30,000 people on our register. So we've done a mail match with those people and we've sent everybody a personal letter to say that they would be eligible for affordable broadband rates. We've had some wonderful people get back in touch to say that they really have benefited from more cost effective broadband and that's made a big difference to their families. So lots of initiatives around the residents and then if I move to our workforce, as a city council, we employ about 3000 people. About 70% of our workforce live in the city. So for us, it's really important for us to equip our workforce. As a city council, we employ many people who don't use it in their day to day roles, people that empty the bins for us and clean the streets for us, etcetera. So we've committed to provide everybody that works in the council a basic it license. Again, we have drop in zones where those workers can drop in and use technology, use PCs, etcetera. And again, we've got an internal volunteering program to help people with those all important digital literacy skills. So we're really proud that over the last couple of years we've managed, managed to equip all of our workforce now with digital. That helps them not only in the working life, but also in the personal life as well.
[00:13:27] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really incredible initiatives and I think lots of really good tidbits to take away for all of our listeners there. So with this extensive free Wi Fi network, I'm wondering if you can elaborate a bit more on the impact, like what have the outcomes been? What have you seen?
Does this really improve the digital divide? Maybe if you can tell us more about that?
[00:13:50] Liz St Louis: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, now, at the moment, we are seeing about 50,000 unique connections every single month for people logging on. So somebody like me, who logs on, it automatically connects. Every time I go into the city, I'm classed as one person per month, even though I might have joined the network 20 times. So 50,000 unique connections, that's people enjoying and benefiting from the free Wi Fi. We've also linked our Wi Fi to something called Eduro, which is the student network in the UK, because we provide the Wi Fi at both of our city centre university campuses, so students can also join and they can stay connected to their edgy road network, no matter where they traverse in the city, which is really, really important, we provide. And what we do see is a real take up. So if we see a nice, hot, sunny day at the beach, we see a massive increase in take up of people visiting the beach and enjoying the Wi Fi. Likewise, if we have a football match in the city or we have a concert in the city, again, we'll see a massive uptake of people enjoying the free Wi Fi. And it's not just our residents, it's not just visitors to the city. We also know some of our businesses benefit from the Wi Fi as well. So, for instance, I went along to the theatre recently and the theatre staff were out scanning tickets in the street, and actually, they were using our Wi Fi to scan those tickets, which was fabulous. We were really pleased that it was being of use to them. But also we run a number of pop up events in the city, things like food and drink, festivals. And again, the vendors, you know, use the Wi Fi there to help them as they're transacting during the day. So it's great to see such benefits, such huge numbers using the Wi Fi, but not just for residents, for visitors and for businesses within the city as well, which is great.
[00:15:38] Tamlyn Shimizu: Have you seen any negatives from having it?
[00:15:42] Liz St Louis: No, we haven't really, at all. What we did when we first put the Wi Fi live, there's something called friendly Wi Fi, which is a kind of badge of accreditation of trustworthiness of the network, because when we surveyed our residents before we went live, one of their biggest concerns was trust. Did they trust the network to use it? So we felt that was really important. So we've done a lot with. With our residents communicating that, number one, it's there, but number two, they can absolutely trust it because it has been accredited by the national body, friendly Wi Fi, and it is safe to use so, so far, no, we haven't. And hopefully that continues.
[00:16:25] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. I love those initiatives that cities more and more are taking up this extensive Wi Fi network. I'm just wondering also when we see more, I guess, risks coming to play with that. Right. So, yeah, very interesting. One other really unique thing about your approach is that you have signed a 20 year strategic partnership with a company called Bolden Networks, which is a global provider of shared network infrastructures.
This is quite a commitment, 20 years. Right.
Most people don't make that long of a commitment except for who they marry. Right.
So maybe could you tell us more about this partnership, how you share equity, risk reward, how that's structured, and also about the risks?
[00:17:18] Liz St Louis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we started to devise our model and we started on our journey, we knew we couldn't do it alone. We knew we needed a partner to help us with our creation of a smart city. And we absolutely knew we can't create a smart city in three years or five years. You know, it needs something like a 20 year investment to really reap the rewards of all of that underpinning infrastructure in those digital and data solutions. So we decided to go out to the marketplace and tender for a private sector partner that could really join us on our journey for that 20 year period.
We decided that it needed to be a partnership, and marriage is a good way of putting it, actually.
And we decided that we wanted that partner initially to help us to design, to build and to manage the network of networks, the Wi Fi, the LoRaWAN and the 5G networks, but then also to help us develop a whole range of those digital and data solutions that sit on those networks. So we went to the marketplace and we tended for that, and a number of companies started that bidding process. And after a ten month procurement process, we signed a contract with, with Bolden Networks, and it is a 20 year contract. We felt it was really important that we both financially input into the, into the partnership. So we've both put equal stakes in initial a. We say it's joint risk, it's joint reward, and, for instance, we both put equal business development resource into the project. So.
And we have quite a strong governance arrangement. As part of that, we have something called our joint innovation board, where on a regular basis, our respective chief executives come together with the top team to really think about how we can continue to innovate and to improve and to progress.
So it really is a joint partnership, a joint, as I say, a joint risk, because some things, you know, that we're doing a fairly cutting edge and sometimes do fail and we fail fast and that's something that we're proud of and because we are trying new things. So that's important to us to share that risk, but likewise it's reward because we operate as a joint venture, a contractual joint venture. So the profits that we make as a council, we get a gain share and we're able to reinvest that then in further improvement works for our, our residents and our city. So we are now nearly three years. Next month we'll be three years into, into our 20 year partnership and therefore another 17 to go. So we're doing well. We're doing well. But at times we always say we feel like we're just at the beginning of our journey because there's so much. So, so many interesting things to continue with.
[00:20:08] Tamlyn Shimizu: So. Still in the honeymoon phase then?
[00:20:11] Liz St Louis: A little bit.
And you asked me about risk as well and I think really, you know, there's always risk. We're working with cutting edge technology, but like I say, we accept that risk and we manage that risk. And when we do fail, we fail fast. We learn and we improve and we move forward. I actually think it'd be a bigger risk doing a partnership with less than 20 years because you just cannot see that same return, you know, within a. Within say a five year period, even a ten year period. It needs that. It needs that longevity. And if you ask Boulder networks, one of the things that appealed to them in bidding for Sunderland was the fact it was 20 years. They are long term investors and they need a long term arrangement. So as I say so far, honeymoon, really, really good. And yeah. Looking forward to the next few years.
[00:21:04] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah. So you would recommend this kind of arrangement to other cities then, right?
[00:21:10] Liz St Louis: Oh, most definitely. I mean, it's a big investment at the start. You know, it probably took us, I would say probably a good six months to get ready to go out, to procure, to really think through how we wanted to present ourselves to the marketplace and to do all of the kind of documentation that you need to start this kind of a process. As I say, it was ten months in terms of the actual process. So it is a big commitment. But, you know, we've been through that. We have that now in place and we are seeing the rewards. Like I say, you know, over the prior three years, but then for the long term, the other thing it gives us is a legally compliant procurement framework. So as a public sector, we have to go through public sector procurement. So every time we want to buy something, we have to go out to public sector procurement, but because we have this partnership, we have it for 20 years, then it is a legally compliant framework, so I can procure any networks or any digital data solutions that sit on those networks with Bolden, and I don't have to go out to further procurement because we've already done that.
[00:22:18] Tamlyn Shimizu: That's, yeah, a very beneficial part of the partnership, I'm sure. Not having to go through procurement.
[00:22:25] Liz St Louis: It speeds us up as well. We can work at pace.
[00:22:29] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Makes a lot of sense.
I know you already mentioned a lot of interesting projects and initiatives. I'm wondering if we can dig a bit deeper into one of your choosing. I know choosing a favorite project is a bit like asking you to choose a favorite child. Maybe. But maybe you have one that comes to mind already.
What is your favorite project? What were the challenges, financing stakeholders involved and impact?
[00:22:59] Liz St Louis: Yeah, I mean, I think I'll go back a couple of years, actually, to our 5G connected automated logistics project. So this is one, our first really big one, I think, where we cut our teeth, so to speak, and fell down on a number of occasions and grazed our knees, but jumped back up again. So this was a competition run. Bye. The UK government, the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, looking for novel ways of using 5g. So we were thinking about what kind of project could we, you know, build and put forward? And we were down with our advanced manufacturing base here in Sunderland, we have Nissan and a large logistics base that supply Nissan. And one of the main logistics suppliers, a company called Vantec, was telling us about this single biggest risk to their business was the fact they couldn't get enough drivers to keep the. To keep the supply chain going. So we sat there and thought, how could we solve that using technology? And we thought, ah, we could automate a truck and remove the driver from the process. So that's what we started to do. So we bid into the competition. It was a great consortia with ourselves as a city council, with an autonomous software provider for trucks, with a truck provider, with the actual logistics base themselves, and with university colleagues. And we worked together over about an 18 month period to deliver the project. And we did deliver three lorry loads of car parts completely autonomously into the Nissan factory.
That's now gone up for further funding. So it's been successful, and now we're scaling up to delivering more trucks on the route and also to widen the route itself. So the trucks were delivered using a private 5G network and remote operators that were able to take over should the truck have a difficulty, or indeed, when the truck needed to reverse into the loading bay at Nissan. And what was really great about that, it was actually the existing drivers from Fantech that performed that remote supervision. So sometimes people will say to us, oh, about taking people's jobs. Well, this was a project where there wasn't enough workers to start with, but actually it was upskilling the existing workers to remotely supervise trucks. And what we proved through that project is one worker can remotely supervise three trucks, whereas one worker can only actually physically drive one truck at a time. So objectives met. There were a number of challenges throughout the time. When we were first building the 5G network, we came across golden crested newts, which are protected species. So we had to go through an ecology study before we could even start to build the network. I never thought I'd come across that in terms of technology.
When we built the network, we had to do a lot of fine tuning to get the sub milliseconds latency that we needed for the truck to communicate with the remote supervision.
And then in actually driving the truck, you know, teaching the drivers to perform remote operations was a challenge in itself, but one they wholeheartedly got behind and succeeded. So a number of different challenges on the way, but through it, it was fun, it was creative, it was cutting edge. And all of the time we were proving a new model of logistics provision in the UK, which was great to be part of.
[00:26:27] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really, really interesting project. Thank you so much. I love also the aspect of the upscaling of the workers, since this is such a fundamental part of when we're automating these processes. So thank you for sharing. So you've laid the groundwork to be able to implement use cases very easily and accelerated across your city.
However, I'm sure that there are still aspects that go much too slowly for your liking.
So one of our main goals at BABLE is to accelerate this change much quicker. So I really want to ask you, what do you think are the tools that are still missing for you to accelerate even more?
[00:27:08] Liz St Louis: Yeah, I mean, I think probably number one for every city is funding, you know, funding. It's a difficult economy that we live in. We've been really successful in applying for government funded projects. We've had over 25 million in to the city from government funded projects, and we've had a significant amount from privately funded projects as well. We've been very lucky, but still, funding is a barrier that we have to overcome. I think sometimes just also our capacity and capability to deliver at pace. We have such vivid imagination and there's so much application for technology that we can come up with idea after idea, but then clearly we have to put the hard working to actually then turn that into a deployable solution and deploy that. So therefore capacity and capability sometimes, and we always start with small pilots that we look to test and then we look to scale those quickly.
I think sometimes just getting from pilot to scale takes a bit of thought and consideration about how we do that. So they're probably the areas that challenge us the most at the moment.
[00:28:22] Tamlyn Shimizu: Makes a lot of sense and also I'm sure a lot of people listening can relate to those challenges as well.
So now those are all the questions I have for you. But now I like to also open the floor in case you think there's something that I missed that is really important to let the people know about Sunderland and what you're doing. Is there anything that you have in mind that you really want to talk about?
[00:28:45] Liz St Louis: I think probably. I mean, we've talked about a number of different projects, but I always like to just, you know, really, I guess give tribute to the power of just a LoraWAN network. You know, our low powered wide area network covers the whole 153 square kilometres of Sunderland and is a fantastic network for transmitting low packets of data and sensor type devices for environmental monitoring, etcetera. We have a whole host of devices now, sensors deployed across that network. So, you know, air quality sensors, traffic and motion sensors. We have legionella sensors. We have helping us, you know, keep our remote buildings legally compliant. We have lifebuoy sensors. So if a life buoys moved off a housing that it sends an alert for somebody to put that lifebuoy back. We have bin fill sensors. We have things like road temperature sensors for when the winter comes and it's, you know, the roads need gritting and we have sensors that help us with flood water management and we're developing a whole host of other sensors. So sometimes we focus on the big project, you know, the autonomous truck. But really just to pay tribute to the benefit that cities can get from a LoRAWAN network, that's relatively low cost to implement and the whole range of environmental monitoring that sensors can provide on those networks. So that's proving really, really beneficial for our city. And because we have the one smart city data architecture, all of those sensors are feeding into that one, one data platform. So we've really got a feel now. We're starting to get a feel for how the city is performing, how it's behaving and how we need to react as a city management to respond to that. So probably just that one to add.
[00:30:39] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good addition just to, again, your tribute to laying the groundwork to be able to do all of these things and enabling these types of projects. So. Yeah, good to mention there. So with that, we're done with the main interview part. Now we just get to play a fun game and then we're pretty much done.
The segment that we get to play is actually my favorite one.
It's called roll with the punches.
Roll with the punches.
Answer this or that questions quickly and with your first instincts.
So basically I'll ask you this or that question. You just say the first thing that comes to your mind and then at the end you can kind of explain your answer. So it doesn't have to be completely logical from the get go. So. Okay, are you ready?
[00:31:33] Liz St Louis: I'm feeling scared, but yes, I'm ready.
[00:31:35] Tamlyn Shimizu: Don't be scared. It's fun.
Okay. Coffee or tea?
[00:31:40] Liz St Louis: Coffee.
[00:31:41] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart traffic lights or autonomous buses?
[00:31:45] Liz St Louis: Autonomous buses.
[00:31:46] Tamlyn Shimizu: Winter or summer?
[00:31:48] Liz St Louis: Summer.
[00:31:49] Tamlyn Shimizu: Public wifi everywhere or universal 5g coverage public Wi Fi AI powered waste management or AI powered energy grid? Energy grid smart city data transparency or data security enhancements?
[00:32:06] Liz St Louis: Data security enhancements.
[00:32:08] Tamlyn Shimizu: Enjoying a day at Seaburn beach or exploring the Sunderland Museum and winter gardens?
[00:32:16] Liz St Louis: Oh, Seaburn. Every step of the way. Especially when the sun's shining like today.
[00:32:20] Tamlyn Shimizu: Perfect. And then boat trip on river ware or cycling along the sea to sea cycle route, I think cycling. Okay, very good. So that's all. Do you want to explain any of your answers?
[00:32:37] Liz St Louis: I think it's probably just experiences and some personal likes in there as well, you know.
[00:32:42] Tamlyn Shimizu: So I think you said public Wifi over five g.
I guess that's from your experience.
[00:32:51] Liz St Louis: I think so. And I think, you know, private 5g networks at the moment there's few use cases that truly need the power of 5g, so it benefits a few whereas Wi Fi benefits so. So many people. So I think it's reaching of the masses as well.
[00:33:07] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, very good. And you went with autonomous buses over smart traffic lights?
[00:33:13] Liz St Louis: I did. I guess that's because we are about to launch our own self driving passenger shuttles a little later this year. So it's a project that's. That I'm spending a lot of time on at the moment.
[00:33:24] Tamlyn Shimizu: Okay, very good. Makes a lot of sense. So I'm good. And I hope to also visit Sunderland and get to experience Seaburn beach and the other things you mentioned as well sometime. So with that, I just have one final question for you. It's a question that we ask every single guest that comes onto the show, and I'm sure you have a very good answer for it in your role. And it's to you what is a smart city?
[00:33:51] Liz St Louis: Oh wow. To me it's very simple. A smart cities using digital and technology to make our city, to make Sunderland a great place to live, to work and to play.
[00:34:01] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very good and straight to the point. So with that, I have to really thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge and extensive experience and all of these stories with us today. It really, really does make an impact on sharing this with a wider audience. So thank you so much for allowing us to share your story.
[00:34:21] Liz St Louis: It's been an absolute pleasure and thank you very much for having me.
[00:34:24] Tamlyn Shimizu: Anytime. So with that, I also have to thank our listeners. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget you can always create a free account on BABLE smartcities EU. You can find out more about smart city projects like these, solutions, implementations and more. Thank you very much.
Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
