Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome to Smart in the city, the BABLE podcast, where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
[00:00:21] Tamlyn Shimizu: I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu, and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
[00:00:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart in the city is brought to you by BABLE Smart cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co-creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at BABLE Smartcities EU.
[00:00:45] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome back to another episode of Smart in the City, the BABLE podcast. And today we're looking at the following question, where are cities pushing the boundaries? And what are the next frontiers in getting to carbon neutral cities? So, as you know, I always need someone here to help me tackle these very tough questions, and I'm very pleased to introduce the guest. His name is Simone Mangili. He's the executive director of the Carbon Neutral Cities Alliance. Welcome, Simone.
[00:01:14] Simone Mangili: Thank you, Tamlyn. Pleasure to be here.
[00:01:16] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Pleasure to have you. We've been actually trying to have this episode for almost a year now, so I'm really glad we finally are doing it.
[00:01:25] Simone Mangili: So we've done it. Here we are.
[00:01:28] Tamlyn Shimizu: Here we are. Here we are. So I'm really excited to talk to you about all these topics because I know you work on them very intensely every day.
But first, I want to start with a bit of a teaser question, as we like to do on the podcast.
And the question I have for you today is, how would you describe the carbon neutral Cities alliance if you only have three words?
[00:01:53] Simone Mangili: Member driven innovation.
[00:01:56] Tamlyn Shimizu: Ooh. Member driven innovation. Okay. Okay. I like it. I like it. Okay, we'll dig into that in a bit and think a little bit more about carbon neutral Cities alliance, CNCA, and what your goals are. But first, I want to learn a little bit more about you as a person. What is your background? Where did you come from? What led you to this point in your life today?
[00:02:21] Simone Mangili: Sure.
Thank you, Tamlyn, again for having me, Simone. My background, professional background. I'm a city planner and have spent most of my career in the city planning space, particularly at the nexus of climate, sustainability and social equity. I'm originally from Milan, Italy. I now reside in Torino, Italy, and in between has spent quite a bit of time in the States and other parts of the world, having the privilege of studying and learning and teaching in various geographies and also working and engaging with communities across various geographies. So I arrived at CNCA almost two years ago, after most recently having been climate sustainability lead for the city of Torino, Italy, in the mayor's office, having spent about almost six years in that role and previous to that in strategic planning at the metropolitan level for sustainable urban development for a few years, and before that in the states, in the Middle east, and in various other parts of the world.
[00:03:32] Tamlyn Shimizu: Cool. What a journey.
[00:03:34] Simone Mangili: Yeah, CNCA fits perfectly with this, with my background, in a sense, having been both a climate sustainability officer, but also having engaged in many types of peer learning, exchange and collaboration environments in the past, that's very much what CNCA is about. So combining the kind of practical expertise with the desire for exchange and cross cultural, cross geographic learning, and sort of leading the charge towards equitable climate action, all things that greatly attracted me to CNCA.
[00:04:15] Tamlyn Shimizu: Cool. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like you're a cup of tea, as you say. So, yeah, you alluded to it already, right. But can you tell us a little bit more about what are the main goals, the mission, what is the work that you're doing as part of CNCA?
[00:04:31] Speaker D: Yeah, so the Carbon Neutral Cities alliance is a member driven alliance of global cities that are leading the charge towards carbon neutrality and centering equity and justice in those pathways. We generally work with the climate sustainability and directors and officers in those cities, sometimes the environment department, depending on the organization of the city, but also engage with different city teams depending on the policy areas that they're working on. We currently have 22 cities in our community, spanning from the US and Canada to the UK, Europe, Australia, Japan and Brazil. And these are cities that have demonstrated bold leadership in climate planning and action. They've made ambitious commitments to climate neutrality. They've developed action plans and have established teams, dedicated budgets to implement those plans. And so CNCA supports those practitioners in the city climate teams in various ways by, for instance, creating genuine and unique peer sharing and learning opportunities that foster and build trust among global leaders to collaborate and troubleshoot together, sometimes commiserate together.
We also offer innovation funding for projects that allow cities to be a bit bolder and more ambitious in taking new approaches to challenging policy areas, perhaps more ambitious than they would be with traditional funding streams.
We also work with cities to help build capacity around communication and storytelling, the narrative building work which is so important, and expanding engagement strategies to bring a whole of society approach to climate action. We work to build skills and capacity in local climate teams, in centering social equity and justice in their climate actions, helping them to put people first in the framing of climate challenges and policies, and then co creating climate action. Together with priority communities, we also help cities advance policy development in those harder to reach corners of deep decarbonization areas where members are moving next and need assistance and support, maybe to map out the policy levers at their disposal and then head into uncharted waters.
[00:06:57] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really interesting work that you're doing. And of course, we spoke actually in Italy, I think for the first time. And since then I've been following your work and really you're working across a lot of different topics. And so I want to dig into some of those topics today. As I mentioned in the intro, when we set out to do this podcast, we were talking about how are cities pushing boundaries? And so I want to get into some detailed questions in different areas that you're working in around what the cities are doing in CNCA. So the first topic I want to talk about is around scope three embodied emissions. First off, for those who don't know, can you give a couple words on what scope three embodied emissions actually means?
[00:07:46] Simone Mangili: Sure. Generally when we refer to scope three emissions, we are referring to emissions associated with production and consumption processes of goods and services that are generally created, manufactured elsewhere outside city boundaries, transported to cities, and then finally consumed in cities. So the embodied emissions are all those emissions associated with that overall lifecycle of a product or a good or a service that is not directly produced in the city boundaries itself.
[00:08:23] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, thank you for that explanation. Can you now share some examples of cities that are leading the way in addressing scope three embodied emissions, particularly, I guess, in sectors not directly controlled by city policies?
[00:08:38] Simone Mangili: Sure. And this is an area that I think many leading cities are now moving into with a lot more sort of intention.
I think there's quite a bit of experience at this point and know how around scope one and scope two emissions. Not that those are by any means resolved in all or most cities, but in terms of scope three missions, there are certain kind of policy areas or consumption sectors that cities have been really leading into in, in the last few years. The built environment is certainly one area where embodied emissions have been particularly a focus for cities. Built environment whole lifecycle. Embodied emissions account for nearly 40% of emissions globally, and the majority of buildings and built environment construction does occur in cities. And so there are plenty of policy levers there that cities have been exploring.
Food systems recognized as also a major contributor to global greenhouse gas emissions, and much of the food that is produced globally ends up being transported and consumed in cities. And that's an area that cities have been increasingly focused on how to reduce lifecycle emissions from their urban food systems and consumption patterns, both where they are directly involved, but also in where in sort of helping people in communities make different choices that are more in line with planetary boundaries and so forth. So food is another area, another policy area that's increasingly a focus in terms of embodied emissions is the reuse of goods and the repair and so forth of a broad spectrum of goods that may be consumed in cities whose lifecycle can be extended to greatly reduce the overall consumption and the associated emissions with those consumption patterns and so forth. So really in a variety of ways. But fashion is another sector, electronics and appliances are another sector that have high associated embodied emissions. And cities are beginning to take a closer look.
[00:11:20] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. I think this, when you list them all out, there's so many complex systems. Right? And so I want to kind of take it one by one based off of what you were just talking about. So first thing you mentioned was built environment.
So can you give any examples, like how are some cities redefining these standards for sustainable urban development in the built environments? Any, like pioneering materials, construction techniques? Can you allude to any of that?
[00:11:54] Simone Mangili: Sure. No, absolutely. Well, there's really a broad spectrum of ways cities are intervening along the whole lifecycle of buildings and the built environment. In general, cities have a strong lever in procurement processes. So in specifying materials for public buildings that are low carbon or that are even capable of storing carbon. So low carbon cements and concretes and so forth are becoming more and more available on the market, and cities are kind of helping to shift market demand on that front. Bio based materials are another area where cities have been really exploring how to incorporate and facilitate the use of bio based materials, or at the very least, remove boundaries for the use of bio based materials. Bio based materials, meaning materials like mass timber or other types of products from bio based sources like hemp wool and so forth. Materials that can both be cultivated and harvested in a sustainable and regenerative manner, but can also are also capable of being highly performative, highly valuable building materials that can also potentially store carbon over the long term within buildings. So this is one area that cities are particularly exploring. Material reuse that I mentioned in some way already is becoming more and more a focus area, being able to build buildings that can be deconstructed and whose materials can be reused, therefore extending the lifecycle of those very same materials and being reused in new buildings or for other purposes. There's really a number of levers. Another might be specifically in looking at the overall material use and designing in ways that can streamline the amount of materials that are necessary in a building by either modifying some structural elements or even rethinking the need for types of spaces within buildings and so forth. And so there's really quite a broad range. And cities can do that, as I said, by leading the market, creating demand for the market, but also by regulation.
Cities are the place where oftentimes local building regulations are specified, zoning determines the types of construction that can occur in different parts of the city and so forth. So really, there's at every level of the urban development process, from planning to design to even the construction process themselves. Using a lot more kind of prefabricated, preassembled materials can help reduce emissions on site. And looking at end of life and the reuse and deconstruction of buildings. There's just so many levers cities are exploring on this front.
[00:15:15] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. There's so many possibilities here, and I've heard actually there's a lot of investment going into more sustainable cement and things along those lines, and cities can really have a lot of power in driving that.
Okay, so what about then, food systems? So cities, this is kind of a complicated topic as well. They're all quite complex, right? They face a number of unique challenges when they're trying to transform food systems.
Can you discuss any kind of innovative ways that cities are pushing the boundaries in that regard to reduce carbon footprint?
[00:15:54] Simone Mangili: Absolutely. I think we're seeing some really exciting examples of cities leading, again from our procurement standpoint, since they do have such strong purchasing power. And cities often do provide food and meals within schools, within public. Within public municipal buildings, within, in certain cities, in public housing communities, or in care for elderly and so forth. So there's many, depending on the sort of competencies of a city, there's many types, types of food procurement processes in place, and those have traditionally sort of not been places where, you know, associated with carbon and climate action, but increasingly are so shifting menus towards more plant based options and diets that are more in line with planetary health diets and planetary boundaries is a strategy that many cities have already pioneered. But moving beyond procurement, I think many cities are innovating in kind of stakeholder engagement processes to bring other businesses, institutions and other groups within the city to share in that process, to share in that shift in diets and so forth. So there's a lot of leadership on those fronts. There's certainly a lot of potential to reach produce carbon and emissions associated with wasted foods. So cities are pioneering quite a bit around food recovery and redistribution schemes and approaches, around reducing packaging and single use plastics and recovering organic material that would otherwise go in sort of a general waste stream.
And many others, including new experiences, new approaches to urban agriculture. Urban agriculture, we know, has been evolving for several decades now. It's really kind of picking up a great deal of steam in many places. So helping communities and people really become more directly engaged in food systems and in food production, even within the urban boundary. Looking at urban farming, vertical farming, more increasingly fungiculture and other experiences that can increase production within cities, while at the same time creating opportunities for economic development, shortening supply chains, reducing resource use in production and so forth. And I wouldn't discount the role that cities have in making public land available for these kinds of uses and for making public land available for other types of food systems. Innovation around public markets, connecting folks to regional food sheds and so forth, through public markets that are really in many places coming back to life and evolving with their communities.
[00:19:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good examples there of pushing the boundaries. What do you think? How do cities prioritize what's most important in, for example, the food systems? Because now there's so many different initiatives. How do you prioritize now what to start on or what to push on more?
[00:19:49] Simone Mangili: Right. That's a great question, tama. And one of the things I think cities naturally prioritize, because they're so closely related, is around the procurement and around meal and menu shifting and delivery, because there's so many associated health benefits as well. So it's really a win win in many ways, where cities are really putting people at the center of climate action, often food procurement and healthy food and healthy diets is a first option to really drive down emissions while improving people's health and livelihoods. You know, there are certain, you know, other priorities, certainly related to, you know, cost and other considerations. But I think generally those, those areas that cities can provide a public benefit, a health benefit, a community benefit through carbon reduction policies, is a key place where cities begin to intervene. And creating local supply chains, regional food sheds, opportunities for people to be outside, to be reconnected with their food systems, is also one of those strategies, for sure, strategies that help. I mentioned cost and in that sense, the waste recovery approaches to organic materials, there's value those materials, there's value in regenerating soils through composting and other management opportunities. And so there's kind of win wins in that sense as well. So I think the priorities are often defined by the local challenges and the local opportunities, but they often tend to put kind of to be those places where cities can create big wins, multiple benefits, and have kind of see a direct line of intervention.
[00:22:09] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, yeah, really good thoughts there.
I want to move on to you mentioned more around circularity and in terms of circular economy, it's a topic I've spoken about a few times. I'm on the podcast with some experts as well, and I find it super interesting also on how cities are incorporating these practices into how they're working.
What are some of the innovative approaches that you're seeing? How are cities pushing the boundaries when it comes to circularity?
[00:22:41] Simone Mangili: Sure. Well, I think there's quite a bit of focus these days on shifting from a linear extractive economy to a more circular and regenerative processes and circular and regenerative economies. Cities are pioneering in a number of ways. I think I already mentioned material use and reuse schemes.
These are big. We already have a lot of materials and resources within our cities. So the ability to be able to reuse, repurpose, upcycle these is a key to circularity that's looking sort of a bit downstream, obviously, but material reuse in construction or even designing upstream, looking upstream, designing with bio based materials that can be deconstructed and reused and maintain a high value in the process, that's one key area, certainly. Material reuse and repair hubs, goods reuse and repair hubs are another approach cities are pioneering, creating opportunities, opportunities for people to connect directly with one another, to share goods and create spaces that communities can come to essentially repair and make goods available for public use.
But many others I think shifting to.
Even in creating large scale events that cities or other institutional players often are central to. There's a lot of interest in shifting events towards more sustainable models where making sure that we're moving away from single use products to reusable, compostable, washable, et cetera, products that don't lose value in the processes or in the events themselves. There's really quite a bit fashion is shifting in this fund, creating opportunities for more, for cities to procure more circular textiles for public municipal employees, but also create places for textile recovery and upcycling and so forth. So I think there's really, you know, oftentimes these have not necessarily been connected with emissions reduction, such approaches, but of course, they certainly are once we begin to look at the overall lifecycle of goods.
It may have been seen in the past as perhaps a waste management or resource management kind of issue to reduce waste or move towards zero waste. But in fact, this circular approach goes a great way towards reducing emissions, reducing the need for new material extraction, new resources, the transportation of goods and so forth. They're actually intimately entwined in many ways, circular approaches with climate action and emissions reduction.
[00:26:10] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah. Can you give me any specific example from one of your cities on any of these? Basically on maybe just to call out one of the. And I know it's maybe difficult for you to single out one city. I know all of your cities are probably doing great work, but maybe you have an example that comes into mind that maybe makes it, brings it to a really practical level.
[00:26:32] Simone Mangili: Sure. Well, we're excited. We're having our annual meeting this year in the city of Stockholm. And one of the things that we'll visit while we're there is something that they've called the mass consolidation center, which is an area that the city has made available, but working multilevel coordination with regional government and so forth to actually allow for demolition materials, various kinds of aggregates, soils, et cetera, the built environment to be stored and stocked in, waiting for opportunities to be reused in new construction processes. And oftentimes that's kind of the big challenge in some of these material reuse schemes, especially in the built environment, is sort of who's going to take responsibility for the material? Where is it going to be stored? How do you match supply and demand and how do you make sure that people are designing, taking into account the availability of such materials? And there's a real role for multilevel governance. And this process, Stockholm is really leading the way, showing, you know, making themselves, you know, a key stakeholder in that process of creating spaces where those materials can be, can be stored, can be processed, can be then matched with supply. So again, it's, it's a circular approach and there's so much embedded in terms of emissions reduction in it because, and also, you know, nature positive impacts, because you're, you're not. It's a way to, to maximize the lifespan of materials and resources, so reducing the need to extract further, which are generally very intensive emissions processes, but at the same time also, you know, find ways for that material to continue to, to contribute to the built environment locally. So I think that's an example that we're really excited about.
[00:28:37] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, the great example there. I'm looking forward to hearing more about your Stockholm visit as well.
I'm wondering if you can also speak a little bit about residual emissions. I feel like it's maybe sometimes a topic that we don't address that often, but that it needs to be addressed. One of those ones.
So residual emissions, I guess, can be all the emissions that even if we do most of the things that we're trying to do, they will stick around. Something like agriculture or shipping. These types of industries, we'll have a lot of residual emissions still. Can you explain a little bit more about how cities are addressing residual emissions? Anything about that?
[00:29:24] Simone Mangili: Sure, it's a great question, and again, one that I think our cities are increasingly thinking about as their ambitious goals kind of approach in terms of timeframe. In fact, many cities, including the cities in our alliance, who are generally leaders in the field, have adopted ambitious goals for carbon neutrality that that account for some level of residual emissions. So many cities have adopted 70% reduction, 80% reduction, 90% reductions, but still recognizing that some emissions will be harder to eliminate. And so other types of, they become residual emissions and other types of processes are needed to get all the way to carbon neutrality or even climate positivity. So various ways cities are pioneering in different levels of government are approaching the matter. You know, some of the ones that I think are most exciting from our perspective are those that take a nature centered or nature based approach.
There are amazing efforts happening around, you know, urban forestry and the use of converting kind of organic material to store, to store carbon. Over the longer term, we were able to support a project led by the city of Boulder, Colorado, and in cooperation with a couple of other of our member cities to explore the best ways and most practical ways for cities to kind of use biochar in urban forestry processes or in other types of processes, and how best to produce urban biochar in the urban context, making use of regional ecosystems and so forth. So that's really an exciting approach that regenerates nature, that while at the same time offering opportunities for climate resilience and adaptation and so forth. So those types of initiatives are really exciting. Other types of initiatives that are nature based and kind of planet and people centered and focused include, we were able to support some efforts in Australia, actually, for the city to, for the city of Sydney to work in cooperation with aboriginal community based organizations that are managing land and country in such a way to prevent wildfire from eventually releasing massive amounts of carbon into the atmosphere, using local knowledge, prioritizing the needs of local communities in their broader region, and really regenerating and creating recovering sustainable land management, country management practices. So that kind of carbon farming is really positive for people and for people and planet and land. So those are really exciting approaches. And obviously, some cities are taking other types of approaches as well, where emissions, as you mentioned, are kind of in some ways cooked into the system. Some cities and regions and even national governments are beginning to implement carbon capture and storage techniques and systems that will have to evolve over, over time.
[00:33:29] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good examples. I also always get excited when you say Boulder, Colorado, because of course, that's my hometown. So. Yeah, good example there.
Last question I need to ask, because when we're talking about climate, we always have to think about how are the approaches also ensuring, are these initiatives also ensuring equitable and inclusive inclusivity in the communities and in the cities?
Do you have any thoughts there on how we can balance this kind of climate justice lens?
[00:34:02] Simone Mangili: Absolutely. This is a major focus for our cities, for the Carbon Neutral Cities alliance.
As an organization, everything that we are trying to do in terms of supporting our cities is trying to also prioritize the well being of historically underserved or marginalized communities. We refer to priority communities for many of our cities, and so helping build capacity within cities to how to essentially center the needs of prior to communities in the framing of climate action, in climate action planning processes, in climate action implementation processes. So what that looks like for different geographies varies across our network. That may mean developing tools, policy assessment and evaluation tools that help cities policymakers ask meaningful and ask them the right questions to understand if their policies are really gearing towards more equitable, reparative kinds of solutions, restorative and reparative kinds of justice approaches.
So looking at cities that have developed such tools, helping them to evolve them and implement them in various ways, sometimes that means looking at process and helping cities to really move from consultative processes around climate action, where the communities are essentially just a source of input to much more participatory and co designing types of approaches in process. So working oftentimes that means building relationships with communities and community based organizations. Often, you know, these are, you know, often climate action can be kind of framed as being very technically oriented towards carbon reduction and so forth. But in reality, doing this work in such a way that really prioritizes the well being and redresses past injustices and does not reinforce current inequities, means build entering into relationships with communities, means building new relationships and fostering new types of ways of working with communities, and ultimately in different contexts, moving all the way to shifting power to communities to really frame the questions the climate challenges themselves and to give the space to community and community based organizations to prioritize climate action that puts people first. So this is a key part of the work that we do in any of the projects that we support. We you know, we facilitate cities building those relationships, building those partnerships with communities and community based organizations, and sharing learnings from those processes with one another to really create a, you know, really advance the field various ways.
[00:37:27] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really good examples. Also there, I had a thought, I know I said last question, but I wondered, you know, we were talking about how cities are pushing the boundaries and my next thought is, okay, but there's obviously a lot more that needs to be done. So where are, from your opinion, maybe just in a couple sentences, where do you think cities need to be pushing a lot more? More?
[00:37:53] Simone Mangili: I would say one of the challenges, I think that we find as an organization, and we're sort of, we like to, for the conversations to continue to evolve a bit more sort of.
We can often get stuck in the paradigm of kind of a replacement paradigm, right, of shifting from private automobiles, combustion engine automobiles, to EV's, or electrifying a building or electrifying buildings and increasing efficiency without necessarily considering the more transformative processes of really shifting our economies and practices. Often this type of replacement paradigm can lead to reinforcing and re entrenching extractive models of economic development. And there's really a great deal of space to be having a lot more sort of ambitious, transformative approaches to ways of ownership, to collective uses, to really kind of also think about the management of consumption and the extent of consumption that our cities and urban environments generate and whether there are other models for really minimizing that. In the end, a replacement paradigm still relies on a more linear, extractive economic model that is not necessarily regenerating. Nature, is not necessarily putting people and communities first.
I think that's an area that, I think there's a lot more room for growth, ambitious approaches and so forth.
[00:39:55] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good thoughts there. With that, I have to take us to our segment that we've chosen for you. It's a segment that we've had since the very beginning, and it's called hot take of the day.
Hot take of the day.
We want to hear an opinion of yours that may be slightly controversial or debated.
Do you have a hot take for us today?
[00:40:29] Simone Mangili: I would just follow up on where I was just kind of headed. I think climate action, if it's not centered in creating planet and people, positive and centered outcomes, risks really not being the solution that I think we're all aiming for. And that means putting our communities and our planetary boundaries in the center of how we frame climate questions. And therefore, if we are in our quest to decarbonize, we are too focused or solely focused on the carbon counting piece. Without really taking a closer look at the transformative approaches to economic models and consumption models, we really risk compounding both inequity and the multiple planetary crises that we're already struggling with.
[00:41:33] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that this is really important for us to focus on and to resonate with you all on this taking the bigger transformation.
So with that, I come to our last recurring. It's a recurring question. It's the one we ask every single guest on the podcast. So if you've heard it before, you know what's coming. And the question is to you, what is a smart city?
[00:42:07] Simone Mangili: Yeah, I think a smart city for me, in this context, in the context of the work that we're supporting, is a city that's courageous enough to really open up to new processes and new approaches and to work with different kinds of stakeholders and in meaningful partnership relationships. This work, you know, this transformative work that we're talking about cannot be done, cannot be done by any one institution.
No city will achieve their ambitious climate and climate and community goals without meaningful engagement strategies and approaches to both stakeholder groups and communities and industry and so on. And so I think a smart city is a city that is courageous enough to really pioneer new models on that front.
[00:43:07] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, I love the courage aspect that you brought into that. I'm not sure if someone has said really in that way this before to me, I really like that. I think I might start incorporating it into my definition as well. So.
Well, that's all we have. Simone, it's really been a pleasure to talk to you and get all of your knowledge and all of your insights into how cities are pushing the boundaries. So thank you so much for your time.
[00:43:34] Simone Mangili: It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you, Tamlin, thanks for having me.
[00:43:38] Tamlyn Shimizu: Absolutely. Come back anytime.
Next time, we'll try to make it sooner than in one year's time. So, yeah, wonderful. And to all of our listeners, don't forget you can always create a free account on BABLE Smartcities EU, and you can find out more about a lot of initiatives, smart city projects, solutions.
[00:43:58] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah.
[00:43:58] Tamlyn Shimizu: Implementations and more. So thank you all for listening.
[00:44:03] Tamlyn Shimizu: Thank you all for listening.
[00:44:04] Tamlyn Shimizu: I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
