Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome to Smart in the City the BABLE Podcast where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
[00:00:21] Tamlyn Shimizu: I am your host Tamlyn Shimizu and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
[00:00:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: Smart in the City is brought to you by BABLE Smart Cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at BABLE SmartCities EU.
[00:00:46] Tamlyn Shimizu: So today we're launching an exciting special series leading up to the Imagine 2025 event, which will take place in Tampere, Finland on May 27th through the 28th. In partnership with the City of Tampere and Urban Innovators Global, this series will explore the concept of the Citiverse and how cities can actively shape its development.
So joining me today, you actually already know them if you listen to the podcast before they're returning guests, which I love to have because you know, they're pros already in the Smart in the City podcast and we get to explore also deeper different topics etc. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Teppo Rantanen. He's the Executive Director at the City of Tampere in Finland, which we previously had the pleasure of interviewing in our episode Harnessing the Metaverse for Urban Innovation. Welcome back Teppo.
[00:01:43] Teppo Rantanen: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
[00:01:45] Tamlyn Shimizu: Happy to have you as always. And with him today, I think maybe winning, I have to double check, but I think he might be winning one of the prizes. For the most returning guests onto the podcast we have Bas Boorsma, Founder and Partner of Urban Innovators Global, professor of Practice at Thunderbird School of Management. This is already the third time that Bas has been joining us. You can hear him on our episodes Rotterdam Digitalization where he was at that time working for the City of Rotterdam and learning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and Urban Innovation Leadership Program episodes. So you can go back and listen to a multiple times on different topics then. But for this I'd like to give a warm welcome again to Bas. Welcome back.
[00:02:30] Bas Boorsma: Thank you Tamlyn. Wonderful to be back.
[00:02:33] Tamlyn Shimizu: Wonderful to have you back for both of you. I'm really excited about starting this series because we've been working with t very closely on this event and really seeing how we can have an impact on a larger scale this year. So really excited to dive into this and let Our listeners know about it. So before we dive in, I always like to warm up a little bit with a little bit of a teaser question. And for that I have a question for both of you and it's if you had to describe your vision for the city verse in only three words, what would those words be?
Buzz, you want to go first?
[00:03:13] Bas Boorsma: Future urban prosperity.
[00:03:15] Tamlyn Shimizu: Oh, very sharp on it. Good. Future urban prosperity. Very good. And Tepo, Happy everyday life for people.
I think that was five words, right? But we'll accept it.
Very good.
Okay, well, with that I think we can go right in to why you think that and how this Citiverse concept is really coming about this year. We're just starting off 2025, so it's really a great time to really be thinking and looking into the and seen how we want to shape this.
First off, I'd like there are some listeners who haven't heard your previous episode. So I'd like you to both briefly introduce yourselves, tell us about your journey that led you into your role today. Teppo, do you want to go first?
[00:04:12] Teppo Rantanen: Sure. So my history goes back being a 30 years plus as a consultant, so working in the global roles in different ways around technology mainly and then the last almost many years now with the city of Tampere is the role of developing the whole smart city concept, evolving into our data driven city concept, evolving into the metaverse and city versus concept.
[00:04:36] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very good and really exciting work that you're doing. Buz, please tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:04:43] Bas Boorsma: Tamlyn. I've been working in the space of urban innovation and digitalization for the past quarter of a century. I think that's the crazy long time and, and, and I've been doing it from every angle. Big tech network organizations, startup accelerators, public sector. At one point served as CDO to the city of Rotterdam and now I try to make sense of it all and, and, and that's, that's a heck of a heck of a job to.
[00:05:11] Tamlyn Shimizu: Do bringing it all together right now.
[00:05:13] Bas Boorsma: Right?
[00:05:14] Tamlyn Shimizu: All the different experiences. Yeah, cool way of putting it. Too.
Good. So you're both bringing a lot of diverse experiences to the table.
Want to. We're going to talk a lot about the city verse in this episode and how that's really shaping out and how we see it really improving lives for citizens in the future.
First off, Teppo, what is the city verse anyways and what is the difference between like city verse metaverse that maybe people are more familiar with? Can you give a little bit of background on that?
[00:05:47] Bas Boorsma: Sure.
[00:05:48] Teppo Rantanen: I mean, there's a lot of terminology and terms which vary a little bit depending on who you ask me. The question is that the metaverse as such, was a broader concept which applies to all areas of industries. And there's a lot of talk about the industrial metaverse and a lot of other types of metaverse surroundings. The Citiverse itself is something which is tied into the city and tied into the people of the city. And to me, the key element that actually differentiates the whole concept of Citiverse is that it is all about people. So it's all about how that what we are doing with technology changes the everyday life of people. And without that, we don't have a meaningful content of the Citiverse.
[00:06:36] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very good, Bas, what do you think?
Why do you think that the Citiverse is such an important concept as we're going through this digital transformation and when we talk about urban innovation. Innovation?
[00:06:49] Bas Boorsma: Well, Tamlyn, cities have always expressed themselves in two dimensions. The social, economic one. People, trade, education, culture. On the other hand, there's to be the physical dimension, the physical realm. Think of skyscrapers, building churches, squares, physical infrastructures. Those have always been the dimensions in which cities have been expressed, in fact, for thousands of years. What is different today is that digital has become the third dimension. Through digital, we express so much urban. We exchange, we learn, we reach out to other people, and we innovate. And with the Citiverse, we're getting to, let's say, the next level of that, where things get virtualized, things are rendered in virtual ways, but it provides us with unique capabilities and opportunities for people to work together, to discuss, to decide within that Citiverse, to get things done in the city, and not just in a physical way, but also in terms of setting up new businesses, new solutions. And I think this is very, very powerful. This is something where we leave an old paradigm behind in terms of how we think of cities, how we operate in them, and how we try to improve that, making sure that the city first evolves not just from a technological perspective, but also from a fairness perspective, from an inclus perspective, from an entrepreneurial perspective. Investment perspective is a big holy grail. And I think we're on the right track.
[00:08:24] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's helpful. I think I want to dig into that a little bit more. Teppo, from your viewpoint, how do you really.
In the teaser, you said it's really, you know, about the people. How do you envision the Citiverse really transforming people's lives in the, you know, in mobility, in sustainability, in citizen engagement? How do you, how do you envision this all happening in the future?
[00:08:54] Teppo Rantanen: So I think it's. It's a journey we have to take. We cannot change things, you know, in a day or in a year, but we have to see this journey where we actually improving the people's possibilities to do things in a way that they. They get all the possible help from technology, but they don't have to know about technology too much. So they can take care of their businesses, they can get the services, they can find their ways from one place to another with the help of technologies without being needed to. So they know indeed what the technology is. And if you can do in a way that you don't always have to even move around, because you can do things from where you are using again, the sort of Metaverse technology that is the future that we see for the people in the future of Metaverse or future of Cineverse.
[00:09:49] Tamlyn Shimizu: Can you give a concrete example from Tampere on how you're using this?
[00:09:57] Teppo Rantanen: So right now we are doing things where we are. For example, we are forecasting the people flow in the center of the city with our Tempere Pulse app, which brings the people ability to see 30 days in advance how the people will be moving around. What's the need for services for shopkeepers and restaurant owners? We have another tool which gives you a digital twin of an individual who's looking for a job and tries to understand better what are the elements of that person and the elements of the jobs that are available and matches those tools with the help of AI, sophisticated AI.
And we have ability to look into kids and their environment and see how we could better help the people, the kids, especially those who have difficulties in their everyday life in school, to find the ways of getting help and getting the support they need using data and using digital technologies, bringing them into this sort of mixture of virtual and physical world. And the fourth one might be one that we are now doing.
The whole experience that people are getting in the center of the city, the cultural experience, the experience around the safety that they feel around them. We're using a lot of the digital twin technologies to be able to do that. So there are a lot of things that we already have done. We need to just make sure that this gets more broadly used and more so they tied together so that we get this holistic view of bringing this experience to people.
[00:11:43] Tamlyn Shimizu: Bas, you wanted to kind of build off of that with your experiences.
[00:11:48] Bas Boorsma: Absolutely. And I wanted to thank Teppo for these very nice examples because they are very typical and they convey the right message as to what is this about. Some other examples that I've come across I really like, that I'm passionate about is think of a particular neighborhood that's up for urban regeneration. A new park or a new part of a park, a new playground, and particular buildings that will be renovated. Now, normally, in the old days, right up to now, if you ask citizens to join in on thinking along as to what that will mean, that means you're going to Send Very boring 2D PDF documents from the city where people have to read the quote and understand what's in there and most people are not even interested. But in a virtualized environment, like an almost gamified environment, you can walk in, you can exchange, you can become creative, you can invite kids in and say, you design your play garden. And this is the powerful thing, it becomes the language. I like to think and I like to say, and I generally do, if you can game, you can participate. If you can game, you can decide, you can co decide. That's very, very powerful. And it doesn't always have to be a situation that gets started or that is owned, let's say, by local authorities in any way. A particular example that I like from Rotterdam is where there is a school that's very fashion focused, really focused on fashion building, you know, new garments, new clothing. And during the COVID days, the teachers were so bored with seeing just themes, videos, and trying to keep the students in creative mode. And what they decided to do is to create a metaverse of their own for the school and other stakeholders where people can participate, become creative, decide on who they want to work with, decide on what they want to show from themselves. Full picture, moving parts or just an avatar. I mean, it's an amazing initiative that they have taken themselves in terms of how can we use these technologies to take the next step and actually become more human about it.
[00:13:53] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really interesting examples from you both. Thank you for sharing. Thabo. It's quite clear that Tampere wants to really lead the charge and play a really active role in shaping what the Citiverse is in the urban innovation sphere. Can you explain a little bit about what role that is that Tampere wants to play and how you envision this even maybe expanding in the future?
[00:14:20] Teppo Rantanen: So one of the key thoughts we have had is to, you know, be able to serve as a platform for different type of experimentations, different type of use cases that the companies want to try their products in. And in the space of Citiverse, we said that, hey, we welcome everybody to Come and join us and build these sort of new cool things, new concepts. And we are doing it together with other cities. We are doing it together with a group of people around the world who want to be improving that. So we do it together with the cities, we do it together with the organizations, together with the United Nations, ITU with eu. So a lot of different stakeholders are, because everybody's interested about this, how it goes and how it goes forward. And we said, hey, we're happy to sort of lead the game together with the other leading cities and happy to share everything that we have learned and happy to be part of being the sort of a showcases for companies of their products on the citybars topic. So we see a very active role and that is what we are happy to do.
[00:15:31] Tamlyn Shimizu: How do you see buzz? How do you see other cities? How can they also take kind of this lead and lead more, lead better, lead more effectively this digital transformation. When it comes to Citiverse.
[00:15:49] Bas Boorsma: What I first of all feel is very encouraging is that not only are a lot of cities taking the Citiverse very seriously as a key point on their agenda in digital development, but they're doing it in ways that it really is tailored towards the particular needs and aspirations of that city. So this is not a copy paste of a PowerPoint of the city next door. What they're doing. Think of a particular challenge in a place like Rotterdam. That's a place that is on the one hand, hand, like much of the Netherlands is below sea level. So with the increased intense and unpredictable weather events that we now have due to climate change, you've got to come prepared, you've got to build these models and these digital twins and Citiverse environments where you can actually see what would happen in different scenarios, prepare better in terms of what to do. Now that is very powerful. But a very similar example, but yet different, also very powerful is Istanbul. Istanbul is a earthquake prone city and, and, and the technology leader of that city has been a guest on, on your show on the podcast Errol. He's a remarkable leader and he went through that experience of an earthquake when he was very young and this has become his passion to ensure that you have the means available through digital twinning and city first technologies to plan, predict, run scenarios in case the next earthquake it will come and it will come.
[00:17:19] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very good points. What do you, what do you think are the biggest like criticisms and skepticism that you're seeing come out of this and how do you respond to those criticisms? Maybe Bas first. And if Tampere or Teppo you want to build on that. From Tampere's perspective, there is no shortage.
[00:17:39] Bas Boorsma: In terms of people being critical and you're getting a lot of feedback. First of all, there is the worry with the term metaverse that this is a big tech thing that is owned by, let's say, well, one of the big, big tech firms. And, and, and the entire idea of the Citiverse is that it's citizen focused. The first letters is not just about city, but it's actually about citizens and that you actually create the governance structures that does not put necessarily big tech in the driver's seat. Are they great partners? Absolutely. But would they own everything that we do? Not necessarily. So that's a problem that we see that gets, you know, communicated and that's how I would also respond to it and how we have typically responded to it. The work that we do is in fact in response, in response to that type of criticism. Because if we don't as a city and those people helping the cities, if we don't do it, Google will, and that's not necessarily bad. But if we want to have the type of city verse that talks to our citizens and what we need and with the right type of privacy that we care about, then you've got to, to actually get into the driver's seat and do a number of things. So that's one of the key elements. The second thing, and I'll stick to that example and then I hand over to Tempo, but another one is that people say, look guys, we've hardly survived the previous wave of digital change. So many people were left out of the boat, so many people were not included. I would say yes, but that, you know, this technology is going to happen. It's there, it's going to happen, it's already happening. Now you decide either you're going to steer that bolt or you're going to be without the instruments to steer it. So that's one element to it. But the other thing is that this particular next step in technology has the promise, the promise that it can be very inclusive to my example that I mentioned in terms of having people part of this Citiverse where they can co design a part of a neighborhood, for instance, it becomes a language. And actually really low threshold. Let's say you cannot read or write, but you can game, you can actually decide in that city first. That's an incredibly powerful instrument of inclusion and we should be using it that way.
[00:19:51] Tamlyn Shimizu: Teppo, what are you hearing as kind of criticisms, naysayers, what are you hearing? Around the block.
[00:20:02] Teppo Rantanen: I think that the biggest challenge is that people don't know what we're talking about. So we need to be educating the people about. This isn't something which is a virtual life thing or second life thing or anything that will happen only virtually. And this is something that ties their everyday physical life into the use of technology in a virtual life and brings those two together.
The other big thing, which I think I hear it a little bit, yes, but I think that if you go further and you, as we already have today, the technology is there, so we don't need to think too much about technological challenges. But the challenge is the social acceptance of getting this sort of technologies for the use of people. So it's a question of also the user interface, look at user interfaces we are developing for people to use it. But also the social acceptance, the acceptance of, hey, seeing this is something that I can do, I will do, I want to do also about your data and how to deal with your data. So there's a lot of trust and that's what we have been focusing on in the way that we communicate to our citizens, that we need to make sure that we maintain the high level of trust we have today with our citizens, that they trust the government and trust things we are doing. Because that probably is the biggest hindrance of making this happen if the people are not, you know, socially accepting what we're doing and not maintaining the trust. So that is probably something which I see the biggest thing for us to work on in the future.
[00:21:38] Tamlyn Shimizu: Absolutely. Are you saying to your citizens, hey, this is Citiverse, what communication are you using? Because I get what Bas was saying, really, that, you know, it comes with this impression that it's Metaverse, that's coming from kind of deep, deep tech companies, etc. And what is the communication you're using to really foster that trust with your citizens?
[00:22:02] Teppo Rantanen: We are not really talking about Citiverse to our citizens. So we're talking through the examples that we are, we are having, showcasing the examples of where we are using technology and showcasing how that works and how it will be improving, you know, their way of being participating in the decision making and their delivery life services and through them showcase that this is the better life for them as citizens using technology. So Citiverse is probably for ourselves. When you talk about, you know, with our partners and peers, we talk to our politicians, then we try to explain that this is what goes under the umbrella of Citiverse. But then there's a lot of things that we do.
So we haven't really thought about that. Would we be using it as a term for our citizens?
We have to think about that. But right now it's a good way of describing it when we talk to different officials.
EU is using the Citiverse, the United nations is using the Citiverse in the Virtual worlds initiative and a lot of companies are understanding what we're doing when we're doing things using that technology in the Citiverse. So I think it's a good term for use in, in a more professional way. But for our citizens, we might be describing it differently. And if I think of the prime target route for us, those who are less mature using technology, maybe the elderly people or others, we definitely would not be talking about cinemas.
[00:23:33] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very true. Yeah, very good approach I think also now let's talk about a big thing that you're doing which is happening in May. I mentioned it at the beginning. Imagine 202025 Tepo, can you frame this? What is, what is it? What makes it unique and how can cities and innovators collaborate there?
[00:23:55] Teppo Rantanen: So we have been trying to have an event once a year around the new technologies. Around last year we totally talked about Metaverse, now we're focusing it this year and calling the Imagine the Citiverse. And this is sort of a where we want to gather a group of cities to come and work with us to put out some challenges when there needs solutions. And then we inviting companies and universities, both big and small ones and startups to come and showcase what they can do for the cities that are there. But also we are inviting a large group of audience to get to know what's happening there and even trying to get some investors to see if they can find interesting startups to invest in this, in this concept. And it's interesting how really great response we have been getting this far from different parts of the world that hey, that sounds interesting and we want to be part of that.
[00:24:53] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, I think we've already gotten confirmations from different cities that are wanting to participate in this, such as of course yourself, Rotterdam, Istanbul, Genoa, Aurora, Illinois, Phoenix have already confirmed and maybe some more cities who are also joining the force and coming to Tampere. What would be kind of the message to other cities maybe that want to get involved, that are listening.
[00:25:19] Teppo Rantanen: So I think this is a unique opportunity of a topic which is on top of mind for many of the cities. They want to learn about how to sort of develop their smart city thinking forward and how to think about these topics like Citiberse and what would mean for them. So I think that this is a great opportunity to come and see learning from your peers, learning from others, join the forces, come and join us for the challenges and also to meet a lot of potential partners who could help you in your future endeavors. So I think that this is a unique and fantastic opportunity. Opportunity focusing on this topic particularly.
[00:26:01] Tamlyn Shimizu: Yeah, really unique, I think, to be actually honing in on the Citiverse. I don't know any other events really doing this. Bas, do you have something to add? I know you're excited about Imagine 2025. Do you have also a message for anyone listening on what, what they can expect and what you hope they can gain from coming?
[00:26:21] Bas Boorsma: Yeah, so I, yes, I am hugely excited about the event coming up. And it's a unique set of cities. You already pointed out some of the big names that are coming and their leaders, their mayors, their CTOs or CIOs and the various partners in their ecosystems that may be investors or startups and others that will join in also. It's very powerful to see that happen. Not necessarily it's totally unique, but what I think is quite unique is that Imagine the Citiverse is being turned into a process, not just an event. This is a starting point where dull cities meet the various companies, entrepreneurs, small or large, respond to the city challenges through that Citiverse lens and continue to collaborate, continue the collaboration. That is a huge opportunity for everyone that's set to join. Now we can set this as an open invitation to hundreds of cities in the world to join in. And the unlocking messages is we're going to be fairly limited in terms of the amount of cities that can hit the stage there. But do put this on your calendar because this is a unique event. We're pushing the envelope not just on the technology side, but really on the content side, the value side as to why we're doing this, how we're doing this and benefit reap the benefits of the innovations that we are about to jointly create there and then that is really, really exciting. So to me, can we only re emphasize May 27th, 28th, that's where it's happened, when it's happening. Tampere, Finland, please join.
[00:27:57] Tamlyn Shimizu: That's the place to be.
So with that I'd have to ask you, I like to give an open floor now in case we missed anything. Is there a topic that you think that we really didn't hit on that we should talk about right now that the listeners should really know about?
[00:28:15] Teppo Rantanen: One thing I could add, and maybe Bas can also reflect on that is the importance of the ecosystem around this thinking. So we have to make sure that we work together with everybody in the ecosystem, in the local ecosystem, the global ecosystem. For us in Tampere, it means that we work very, very closely with our companies, with the global companies and the local companies and the universities. So there's a. A combination of bringing all the different sectors together and also combining the citizens into the equation. So how do you build this ecosystem is a good thing to think about, whether you are joining us in dumper or not. But that the ecosystem thinking is one word I would like to leave behind on this podcast.
[00:29:00] Tamlyn Shimizu: Good point, Bas. You also had a pointer. You want to build on that?
[00:29:04] Bas Boorsma: Absolutely. No, it's probably the most important point that Depo raised. I will just come up with a second, which is that when we consider the development of the Citiverse, we shouldn't consider as this being a technology that we innovate with and on in isolation of other technologies or approaches that are wildly innovative but not digital at all in nature, but could be wildly analog in nature. What is very important is if you think of the. The digital twins and the Citiverse of the future, is that there's going to be an ever more relevant application of AI, but also the Internet of things in it. And I think what has happened too much in the past with regard to digital in our cities is that we have innovated in isolation. The same applies to the divide between digital and analog. Having worked in a city myself and having worked with other cities across the world, so often you see that there's a group of people that look at the analog side of climate change, for instance, and then you have the other folks that are working on digital and that does not make sense. You've got to come together. And not only should the Citiverse provide us with a meeting place in order to make it happen, but through the expertise of these different types of group and experts and people, we should actually get to a better level of innovation. So that's a very important thing to drive. It's an important part of the debate that we should be having.
[00:30:25] Teppo Rantanen: And I'm just adding one point which is also important, building on what Bass has said is that when you think about big, big things that we are struggling right now, one of them is biodiversity and biodiversity something under climate change, but biodiversity more as a big theme that we have been thinking. How can we use better the technologies on the city burst? How can we use digital twins? And thinking about. Because we have a lot of data on built environment and non Built environment, How do you combine those two? When we are planning for new residential areas, for example, how do we do planning which would happen in a way that it takes into consideration all the sort of natural assets, all the biodiversity diversity assets we have. So there's a huge potential in building a better future for the whole planet when we are using these technologies the right way.
[00:31:19] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really amazing points. To end us off there with the main interview part, I'd like to get into a segment, it's a great segment where I have no part in it, it's just you guys. So it works out great for me.
It's called Flip the Script.
Flip the Script.
You are the one asking the questions and I'll be the one answering them.
And then in this case, when there's two guests, you get to ask each other a question and answer it for each other. So already, who would like to go first?
[00:32:00] Teppo Rantanen: Boss, you go first.
[00:32:02] Bas Boorsma: I have a great, hopefully a great question.
So all of us, all of the people here are working on this great event coming up. Imagine the Citiverse Tampa, Finland May 27th, 28th. By the end of 28, May 28th, we're going to be tired. But we, let's say we meet again on the 29th and we're happy. We're happy about three points in particular. Three points that really surprised us and made us so happy and it took the event in directions that we couldn't even start to contemplate. And we're raising a glass of champagne there tempo us, all of us, what are the three points that made us smile and made us so happy?
[00:32:44] Teppo Rantanen: I think one of the things is to if we can have seen the enthusiasm of people, they are really enthusiastic about the topic and about the things that we are doing. And the second would be that we see also the startups finding their way through. So because we know how difficult it is for startups in this space to really get into something which can be developed into meaningful solutions.
Third one would be already building the sort of a mini ecosystem from the players who are playing there together with us and see how that could be working for our benefit. So I think that these would be my three points. But of course we'll be celebrating, just having fun.
[00:33:28] Tamlyn Shimizu: Love it. Yeah, lots to celebrate, I'm sure will be on the 29th. Tevo, do you have a question that you'd like to ask Bas?
[00:33:37] Teppo Rantanen: Yeah, I would like to ask, how do you see, when you have been traveling around the world, how do you see the differences in different parts of the world? Is There differences how the different parts of the world are actually able to adapt the topics around the Citiverse or do you see major differences? And when talking Asia or Europe or.
[00:33:59] Bas Boorsma: Americas around this topic, I think that there are a number of, of things that are very clearly very different. These are the things that typically get highlighted. I think that what we like to put ourselves on the shoulder on in the European part of the world is that we say things could be very much value based. We don't want to leave all of it to private sector these type of arguments. Then there is the risk of us becoming slightly arrogant about that in Europe because if you actually look at things that are happening and where all other parts of the world, I come to think of whether that's in China or right in the Gulf region or whatever, it isn't less value based, it's just different values and that's fine. So there's actually more commonalities than you would think. For instance, if you look at some of the great work that's happening in places like Oman or Dubai, it's absolutely staggering how fast it's moving. But the technology side is the easy part. Actually I wouldn't highlight that how fast they're moving in terms of citizen engagement and getting them on board with the process and making sure you understand what you deliver and why and under what conditions. It's amazing what they do with that in places like Oman and Dubai. I would be equally impressed with what they're doing in South Korea, for instance, and how they apply these technologies there. And they provide us with an example, you know, for all of the world in terms of how they do this in a fair way and in an effective way. How this is not just a set of pilots, but in fact something scales and is deeply relevant with measurable impact for the entire city. So there are differences in terms of how advanced it is. There are differences from one region or a place or a city to another in terms of what type of values are embedded in what it is that you're building or how rich the ecosystem is. But actually with that it's also remarkably similar in terms of the passion, the level of ambition, how this is moving forward at light speed across the world.
[00:36:04] Tamlyn Shimizu: Really great questions and answers. So thank you for playing along. Now we come to the final, final question and you both know what's coming and you've already probably answered it, Boz. Now this will be your fourth time answering it, so we'll have to play it back and see how it's changed over time. The question Is is to you, what is a smart city?
Bas, you start.
[00:36:26] Bas Boorsma: Okay, well, you know, Tamlyn, you know how I've always objected to this particular term, right? Nobody knows anymore what a smart city actually is. What's smart and should it only be for cities? But in general, like a fair answer to this question, what I really think is important is that we drive these innovation agendas to expand our capacity to be resilient and with that, also socially and economically well off in an inclusive way. And that sounds easy to say, it is easy to say. It is challenging to execute on, but we have to because the world is moving very, very quickly around us. Big challenges like climate change, energy transitions. We have plenty of conflict around us in the world. We have political systems changing. The world is moving at an incredible speed and we have to become more resilient. And with that, if we can drive our innovation agenda to prepare our communities, our cities, our citizens in order to become that more resilient, then so much the better. And with that, yes, again, as I mentioned before, for all of us to grow comfortable at being uncomfortable.
[00:37:36] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very good answer as always, Teppo.
[00:37:40] Teppo Rantanen: So if I just start with the fact we are living here in Tampere, in the country that has been selected five times in a row, the happiest country in the world and we are the most populous city in Finland. So I think that to me, the smart city is the city where people are happy. So where people feel that the happiness is thriving because of the easiness of their lives, of their everyday lives, of the can take care of things and the easiness of how they react to things like safety and security around them or the way that they are interacting with other people, with the other organizations, with authorities. So to me, the happiness is the key word for a smart city. And by the way, I think the smart city terminology such is old fashioned already, but yes, let's play along with that.
[00:38:35] Tamlyn Shimizu: Very good, excellent speaking to you both and thank you so much for sharing all of your amazing insights, your knowledge about the Citiverse. And I think we're all excited, really excited for May when this all comes together and like we all get to come together in Tampere, bridge those ecosystems, create new partnerships, really bring it all together. So thank you so much, much for, for also taking the time today and, and speaking to me.
[00:39:03] Bas Boorsma: Thank you for having us.
[00:39:04] Tamlyn Shimizu: Thank you, Tammy, thank you very much and of course thank you to all of our listeners. Don't forget, you can always create a free account on BABLE-smartcities.eu you can find out more about innovative projects, solutions and implementations. Thank you very much.
[00:39:20] Tamlyn Shimizu: Thank you all for listening.
[00:39:22] Tamlyn Shimizu: I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
