Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: The City the BABA Podcast where we bring together top actors in the Smart City arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
I am your host Tamlyn Shimizu and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
Smart in the City is brought to you by BABLE Smart Cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform BABLE SmartCities EU.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: So today's episode is part of our partnership with Urban Future.
We're recording live at the 2026 edition in the lovely city of Ljubljana, actually one of my favorite cities.
And I have to give a big thank you of course to Urban Future. Conferen have welcomed us here for I think the fifth year in a row, being a media partner as well as a content partner, working with them on a wide variety of different exciting sessions.
So it's really my honor to be here again this year and also be recording with some amazing new guests as well.
In this episode, we're heading to Celje, Slovenia and exploring what it takes to build urban change with people, not just for them.
So without further ado, I have two wonderful guests with me today.
First off, I have to introduce you to Monica Tomenes, Head of Development Projects and Economy Office at the municipality of Serje in Slovenia. Welcome Monica.
[00:01:44] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Happy to have you here. And joining her today is also her lovely colleague Tanya Tamcha, expert associate in the Department for Development Projects and Economy and at the municipality of Selja in Slovenia. Welcome Tanya.
[00:01:59] Speaker D: Lovely to be here. Thank you.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Lovely to have you as well. I'm really excited to dig into probably a city not many people have heard about. I think I'm assuming that correctly. I'm also new to it, so I'm going to learn a lot with you today and I'm excited for that. So with that I like to start us off with a bit of a teaser question to get us warmed up and that is also about your city. So do you have a fun or little known fact about Selye?
[00:02:29] Speaker C: Well, many times they tell the story about Alfred Nobel and his mistress Sofia Hayes that used to live in Celje and that was the reason why he came to Celia. Yeah, maybe Tanya has another example that it's not so maybe more connected to the topic we have today.
[00:02:52] Speaker D: I actually don't, but I could drop another name which is Alma Carleen, who was an explorer of the world when there were no planes.
So she traveled for eight years and she was from Talia and she did it all by boat.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Oh, okay, very interesting.
Now I want to dig a bit more into the city and everything, but first I like to give people a proper introduction into who you are as people. Right.
So I wonder if you both could describe a little bit your journey and how you ended up in this interesting role, how you ended up at the municipality and. Yeah, tell me, tell me about your journey. Monica, you want to start?
[00:03:34] Speaker C: So I.
I'm an architect and I never really planned of working in municipality so I was working in an office and then we had good three years ago we had elections where our mayor after almost a quarter of century changed and that's how I came to municipality. And since then I'm loving more and more this job and I think it's much more interesting than just, I don't know, making buildings and houses as an architect.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: So yeah, yeah, absolutely interesting. I love hearing about everyone's journey and what they did in their past life before local government as well.
Architect background, cool, very interesting.
Tanya, I want to hear about you. Where did you come from?
[00:04:25] Speaker D: Well, I'm a bit older than Monica, so maybe my journey is a bit longer.
And also I did not work for the public administration before this.
I left Celia quite early, just around after finishing my university studies.
So first off I went to Asia, to China to. To do business actually.
So for nine years I was in Shanghai working on different projects, mainly it, other business, industry.
And my latest, or my. My last project in Shanghai was actually for the Expo 2010 where Slovenia had their own pavilion. So it was a really, really interesting and really good end of one of my periods I would say.
Then I did not return to Celia yet. I went on to another continent. I went to Africa for another three years. But I changed, I should say not roles but industries. I started working on circular economy, basically collecting electronic waste and cleaning the African continent, I guess was my image that what I was doing.
But it only lasted for about three years after which then I did return to Slovenia and because I wanted to do something with more meaning, I started working in the social economy sector. And I was actually a part of the ecosystem that was trying to build social innovation ecosystem in Slovenia.
And this was really interesting.
The more. More interesting fact is actually that I was working in the space museum at the time which was under the Ministry of Economy.
But that's actually where I started working on new projects and that led me to sell it and because once the administration changed, as Monica said, After 24 years of the same administration, new ideas started circling around the municipality. And one of those ideas was City Conference. And that was my entry point because I was organizing conferences in different parts of Slovenia at the time. And we started this project together actually in Celia. And now we are in our sixth conference in the last good three years and we can maybe touch on that a bit later on.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm interested to hear more about it and what your goals and progress has been with that.
Maybe first we should also give a little bit more background to the city, because besides the interesting facts about the famous people and everything, I think people still have no idea where Sellje is geographically and what it looks like. What is the population, what is the landscape?
[00:07:33] Speaker D: I don't know.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Monica, if you want to explain a little bit about the city.
[00:07:36] Speaker C: Well, if I would describe Celia, I would say it's a very nice place to live. A place where you have everything and where it's like the whole Slovenia. I think it's because we don't have big cities. Even Ljubljana is not a big city. So living in Slovenia, when you go maybe to bigger cities or different countries, then you appreciate more what we have. And we believe that small cities are really the cities for the future. Because I don't want to use this phrase, but I will, because it's like Celia as a whole is a 15 minute city because you have nature, you have people know each other. Because originally I'm from Ljubljana and Ljubljana is that bigger that now that it's more popular and there's more tourists.
You cannot really walk on the street and meet all the people that you know. And in Celia you have that. So it's really this local vibe. It's great for most generations maybe at the moment the younger, the younger generation is like a bit complaining that there's not much going on. But when you go out, and especially when we go to conferences, we see that this is not just the problem that we have because the times are changing.
But I think the main.
Yeah, it's really a nice vibe and the greenery and the infrastructure that we have that enables you a very nice life.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Yeah, very good. And it's about what's the population?
[00:09:20] Speaker C: It's 50,000.
[00:09:21] Speaker D: 50,000.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: And it's about an hour from here,
[00:09:24] Speaker C: 80 kilometers from Ljubljana. And it's like in the middle of Slovenia, next to the main road that goes from Austria to the Adriatic Sea.
So it's like very on the road where many people travel.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: I. I really would love to go. I think every single place that I've gone in Slovenia I've loved and I have the feeling I would really like the small town vibes that you explained about. So I have to come visit sometimes. You mentioned, you both mentioned an interesting project.
Right.
Magnet.
Is that how you pronounce it? All the acronym of the EU projects.
And I'm just wondering if you can describe a little bit more about the project. What is the goal? Who are the partners?
Who wants to start with that?
[00:10:17] Speaker C: You do it, Tanya.
[00:10:21] Speaker D: Well, thanks for mentioning the project. So this is the second big thing that we did together. I could say this one is the biggest. Yeah, this is the biggest one. But Monica had the idea and she, together with Iri Ulla wrote the project and created the partnership. But basically it's a European urban initiative supported project addressing brain drain.
So we are a typical European small town which is not a university city. And this is one of the main reasons why we are experiencing this in the last few decades.
So with this project, this is our main goal, to see how we can change this situation.
Meaning let's keep the talents in Celia, let's keep the young in Celia. But what do we have to do for them to stay there? And we found there there are basically five topics that we need to address or five challenges that we need to work on to bring the people back or make them stay in the first place. I mean, we actually, in the conversations we found it doesn't make so much sense that they don't even leave because we do want them to experience life, experience the world, but then bring that experience back to Celia and add value to everyone that remains.
So the five I mentioned, the five challenges, these are affordable housing because no one, they can't stay if they have nowhere to live.
Sustainable mobility. Monica mentioned we are a 15 minute city. We are really working hard on having green transportation, supporting biking, walking and so on.
We want to, through the Industry 4.0 challenge, create jobs with higher added value and connect businesses with public institutions and educational institutions as well as the challenge we have with energy. So we are trying to address or come up with innovative ideas how to create energy communities or be sustainable and so on.
And the fifth that also Monica already mentioned is the city atmosphere or city vibe. We want to create happenings in Sellia that address or talk to everyone, not just the young, not just the families, but all the people that live in Celia. So this is short, but we can discuss more.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah, sounds like great goals. How do you get there? What is the how does the project foster that really there.
[00:13:20] Speaker C: Well, it's the participatory component of the project, where we.
Not that we want to come with the solutions, but we want to explore and find the solutions together with different stakeholders, with experts, and especially with engaging the people, which depends of the topic.
And for us, this project is a good opportunity to establish some kind of city network or this environment in the city where different institutions and people come together. I know it maybe sounds like buzzwords or something that everyone is talking and everyone is doing, but when experience it in the first hand, or when you do it and when you have opportunity to take enough time to do it, it's completely different because the role or how municipality is perceived. What we should do is build roads and I don't know, take care of kindergartens. And all these intangible things are something that many times, especially politics, think it's like wasting money. And that's why for us, this European urban initiative that enables us to like work in a way that people in urban future are saying it's. Yeah. And already, even if we are quite in the beginning, because the participatory processes almost. I mean, they started now we see the difference. We see that it. This really has.
Yeah.
[00:15:05] Speaker D: Already.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah. That's amazing that you're already seeing the impact. I'm wondering, because you mentioned this public participation is something that's ongoing, right? It's not just one off consultation here, whatnot. So it's an ongoing process. What does that in reality really look like then when we say that that is an ongoing process.
And what formats have you found really engage the people?
[00:15:29] Speaker C: For us, participation is not just making a checkbox tick, because it's not something that you want to do just because you do it. So you can say in a report that you did it, but it's something that we want to have some outcome out of it. And that's why we also, when we organize everything that's related to participation, we try to get the people we want. And it's from small consultations about certain topic. It's maybe going when we. Because in the past three years we, for example, we renovated more than 10 different playgrounds in the city, which is a lot for a city of 50,000 inhabitants. And for a few of the biggest, we did public consultations.
And so that we invited the people that live in these neighborhoods to. To come and to say what they miss, what they want. And then we have, I don't know, participatory budgeting.
And we especially not just in this urban design or how we plan the city.
Also in other. I don't know when we.
We renovated our webpage and we also brought together all the key stakeholders and we did research with the citizens to find out the new web page of our city has to be, or how to communicate. And maybe I just say this last one and then maybe you explain, Tanya, about how the participation in Magnet goes. So the last one I want to mention is about these bigger urban renovations, for example, preparing new spatial plan for a big part of the city where we.
Because in Slovenia we have a public competitions and we are about to have another one together with the Chamber of Architecture and Spatial Planning. And in this competition we. It's a pilot case where we did participation already when we were preparing the brief. So the public or the people that live in this neighborhood were asked for what they think or how they see this space should be in the future, so that we can put this in the brief for the competition. And this is something that we now kind of systematically, after three years, put in practice how to design new, bigger urban spaces, which maybe again, for, I don't know, Vienna is something that they do for decades, but for Slovenia, this is something new.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Very interesting. So do you want to explain more about how this works within the project, Tania?
[00:18:20] Speaker D: I can.
I mean, of course, this is happening all throughout the municipality for the past three years, and it is a process, but with the MAGNET project, we are trying to increase or make it even more modus operandi, day to day with our co workers.
Right.
So in Magnet, we have three circles. We have the inner circle, which is the inner team, the municipality team, that thinks about the certain topic. Then we have the second circle, the extended team, so to speak, where we invite certain experts or public officials from other public companies in Celia to think with us, to discuss, to think about whatever the issues are and the possible solutions.
And then the third circle, or the third tier, is the general public. So we have three stages, but more than that, we want to go through steps, so we engage people early, then we test ideas. We don't implement something just because we think it's a good solution. We want to talk about the people who will be using it, and we want to test it. And then we co create these solutions with users. So it's a continuous process that we are, with the magnet, experimenting on, and then hopefully it will become our way of working.
[00:20:07] Speaker C: Yes, and also it's a constant search for balance between what people want and what are you actually able to do or to implement. So Participation for us is not necessarily or mainly idea seeking because it's more checking if the way is, is right and if the.
Yeah, if there is something we can improve or maybe if you really get bad feedback, then you have to change the course. But it's because having an idea, it's really easy, but making something out of it, this is the hard part.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And also some, I guess some critics might say that if you overdo the public participation, it can also slow things down. I wonder if either of you have a situation in your experience where it's either like really slowed something down or maybe you also have something where it might have led to faster or better outcomes. Do either of you have an example there?
[00:21:11] Speaker C: Maybe it's. I think we don't, I don't remember really for a case that went badly maybe because I think in the most cases we think what is the outcome we want to get out of the participation. We don't just run into it. So if you know what are, what are you going to do with answers, then it's less chance that you will create expectations that then will not be realized. And maybe if I look back, maybe there were some cases that if we did participation that even for a very, very small thing, or just ask and check, maybe some.
Yeah. Lapses wouldn't happen. But it's. Yeah, it's about parking like probably everywhere.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yes, it's a common one.
It's a common one.
[00:22:08] Speaker D: Now maybe I have an example of the recent new alliance being formed just out of the magnet challenge Energy communities, which we have some public institutions that usually would not come to us for cooperation. But because of this deliberative process or participatory process, we are now not only doing one project with them, but have a line of three to five upcoming projects that we are actually looking for either financing for or already implementing. So for sure, this process is strengthening alliances in the city and it is giving us opportunities to get to know each other better, to share resources because our big challenge is not having enough
[00:23:01] Speaker A: people,
[00:23:04] Speaker D: quality people, high, highly educated people. And so with bridging or with forming alliances, we also share these people, you know, and their knowledge.
So I see already great impact in this way of working.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's good to hear.
I want to ask you a little bit about the long term vision of the city.
Maybe you can explain a little bit about what is your long term vision. And also the one of the biggest challenges of course is moving from vision to actually how you action this. Right.
Can you maybe Monica, you want to Walk us through an example of an idea that moved from vision to implementation.
Yeah, tell us about the. About the future.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: Well, I think we try to work in a way that we don't promise what we cannot deliver.
And maybe a change, that change of a mindset is that because many times you were forced to think in four year terms because of the politics. But what we try to do is always think in a longer term when we plan or when we decide what to do and how to do it, to think of like, look 20 years ahead and then check what we can do in this four year terms for which we have money or how to con. Also how to connect different teams with each other. Because again, it's something that you think it's obvious, but the public administration really works in this silosis. And it's even worse, if I can use this word, when you go to the national level.
And what we try to do is when we start something new, we want to, from the beginning, not just include people, but also establish collaboration with the ministries, because you can go or work as an enthusiastic municipality that tries to find as many tenders for money for some time, but if you want to make a longer tender or long term change, you need to think about the systems, you need to think about policies, and you need to try to find a solution that will fit not just for you, but for other municipalities. And you cannot do it without, yes, the expert, but especially without ministries. And at the moment we have a few of such collaborations in not all of them, I mean, in early stage, but some quite progressed. But again, we just had elections, so we will see what comes out of it. But many times, even when we speak with other cities in Slovenia, you see that you have the same problem, but everyone starts from the scratch and it's waste of money, waste of people, resources. And maybe what we try to do differently is change the perception that when we.
I don't know. One of the topics we are exploring at the moment is citizen assembly. It's something that in Slovenia has never been done before. And we are doing it in collaboration with the ministry because we want to come up with a model that will work for other municipalities and that will be in line with all the regulations and everything that then can be adopted across country. So I think this is something that we are maybe not unique, but it's not to do something just for yourself.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point, Tanya. I'm wondering also in your experience, once there's an agreement, okay, you've done the participatory process. It's an agreement. Okay. We want to move forward with this idea.
[00:27:24] Speaker D: Right.
[00:27:24] Speaker A: This is a good idea. We've gotten everyone on board, but there's some things that still break down in the implementation period. Maybe.
What do you think it is? Is it funding, governance capacity, something else?
[00:27:39] Speaker D: I would say usually it's people and relationships between people.
Funding is often the issue, of course.
And as Monica mentioned, we have four year terms in the mayor's election, so this can drop certain projects. But all in all, I would say it's always the people.
We've seen this in our projects, but it's a human factor, so we can't really change that. We are really, really doing a lot to make the relationships inside the municipality better. We have workshops, we have conferences and we are being honest with this process.
Actually. We are trying to shift minds, but we know it takes time on the time point. Right.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: That's.
Change is happening in a lot of cities, but it often just happens way too slow. Right.
So change is happening. We see this over the course of, of the years. It is happening. We're making progress, but it's so much too slow to meet the quality of life. We want for citizens to meet our climate goals. Everything that we need to do.
[00:29:02] Speaker D: Right.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: So if you could pinpoint what your municipality needs to accelerate the change, what would you pinpoint as that tool mechanism, funding? What is it?
[00:29:15] Speaker C: I don't know. I think we need continuity, which is hard to get in the system that moves like a tanker and that has these four year cycles. But I think.
[00:29:27] Speaker D: Yeah, another four years. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's number one for us. I would.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:35] Speaker D: So that we can, as Monica said, continue with everything that we are now setting us up as foundation.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:42] Speaker C: And maybe never forget that we are guests and that when we are gone, someone will come after us. And the what that someone will get. It's also a responsibility and it's, it goes in the both, in both ways because many times, for example, we have colleagues that they retire or they find another job and then when they go, all the knowledge goes with them. And I think we have to find a way how to like exchange this knowledge, which is hard in this tanker system because if we find, I don't know, a solution for that, there would be more, more time and capacity for creativity, for innovation, for good ideas.
But yeah, maybe I'm speaking a lot about this systematic, systemic things, but it's really, it. Many times it's the, the, the, the thing that's that slows Everything. And that's why it's so important to also have good relationships and to have good vibe and to appreciate all the people you work with. Because I'm very grateful to. Because we are in the Department of Development. There's the team of 10 people, so me and Tanya and then eight others. And I think it's privilege to work with all these different people of different backgrounds, different knowledge. And I'm very happy to see how we work as a team and how we collaborate with each other and help each other, which is also not something that we should take for granted because it's, it's. It's a group work.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: That's a really nice note, I think.
So now we move on to our fun segment that we have on the show. This segment that I've chosen for you today is called Flip the Script.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Flip the Script.
You are the one asking the questions and I'll be the one answering them.
[00:31:58] Speaker A: It's great when I have two guests because I get to sit back and enjoy my coffee and you get the chance to ask each other a question. It actually is the best way for me to learn. And usually people come up with better questions than I could ever come up with as well. So, Monica, do you have a question for Tanya?
[00:32:20] Speaker C: Well, Tanya already mentioned China, which for me is something really wow. The fact that Tanya lived for how long? Seven years? Nine years in China. And that is also something that when I have to say something about Tanya, I tell people she was in China, she was in Africa. And how.
How come that you went to China?
[00:32:42] Speaker A: How come?
[00:32:44] Speaker C: Why?
[00:32:46] Speaker D: But this is a very personal question.
[00:32:48] Speaker C: Oh, sorry.
[00:32:51] Speaker D: No.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: And that you stayed for so long, it's wow. I mean, I never had the courage to leave Europe.
[00:32:59] Speaker D: No, I always loved traveling. And already in high school, I was thinking, what should I go to study at the university that will add value that not many people can do or, you know, and that will allow me to travel and explore the world.
And the reason why I was asking this question is because my parents are economists. My sister went to study economy, and I thought it was boring. So I went and studied Chinese and political sciences. And that's what enabled me to then travel the world and learn a language that of course a billion and a half people speak, but not so many in Europe.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: Very cool. Sounds like an interesting journey. For sure.
I also had the travel book from when I was very young, so I understand the sentiment very well.
Now, Tanya, do you have a question for Monica?
[00:33:54] Speaker D: So it's very unusual that a Ljubljana person comes to Live in Celia. Why would you do that?
[00:34:01] Speaker C: As you. I also have a personal reason because I had a partner from Celia and when I came from Erasmus in Barcelona, I was still in faculty. I moved straight to Celia and then I lived in Celia for eight years and it grew to my heart. And even that now I live back in Ljubljana for past four years.
Celia is still my favorite city, more than Ljubljana, because I feel at home there. I like the people, I like the vibe. And also I don't know for me to identify or to say my or mine, as I say when I speak about Celia, it means a lot because I don't say it easily and I really believe that Celia will be. I will live again in Celia. So maybe not at the moment, but hopefully soon.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Tanya was excited about that. So yes, come back.
Now we get to the final question. It's a question that I ask every single guest that comes onto the podcast because at the end of the day we all, we do say that we're a Smart City podcast and that question is to you, what is a Smart City?
[00:35:24] Speaker C: Okay, I hope this will not sound wrong, but I think around Smart City it's a lot of confusion because it is a buzzword.
So I don't maybe see it that much from a technological component. I see it as connecting different areas between each other to work coherent.
And for me it's a lot about user experience and people centered design.
And it's like bringing this human component in. Something that sounds technological in words, but it maybe we have to find some other word.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: I don't know. I know I always want to find another word for it. It is the word used by the European Commission for a lot of these things though. So that's why in Europe it still makes sense. I know in other regions they don't want to use it as much anymore, but I agree.
You want to add on that at all, Tanya?
[00:36:26] Speaker D: I don't know. I lived in Asia for so long that I saw mill like really big cities use really smart solutions and that's where they are needed and that's where they come into.
It's evident that this is what's needed. Like Shanghai or Singapore, you know, there Singapore is one of the smartest cities I know. But yeah, actually I like Singapore better because they work for the people. So solutions work to bet. I mean it. Or technological solutions work to better people's lives.
And if we were to go that path in Celia, I would say let's look towards Singapore more than some other smart cities.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Celia, the next Singapore
[00:37:15] Speaker D: we can hear you.
[00:37:18] Speaker A: The next Singapore of Slovenia. Amazing.
[00:37:22] Speaker D: I love it.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: So with that, I just have to thank you, you both, for taking time out of your busy schedule. There's a lot going on at Urban Future. Lots of interesting sessions. Thank you so much for spending this last hour with me.
A great conversation. You taught me a lot always.
And so thank you as well, of course, to Urban Future for allowing this to happen, for connecting us as well to make this happen. And of course, thank you to all of our listeners. Don't forget, you can always create a free account on Babladesh smartphone cities, eu. You can find out more about projects, solutions and more. Thank you very much.
[00:37:58] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:37:58] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: It.
