Episode Transcript
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:00:06 Welcome to Smart in the City, the BABLE podcast, where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations. I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu, and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life. Smart in the city is brought to you by BABLE Smart Cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co-creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at bable-smartcities.eu. Well, today we are traveling back to Copenhagen to do a special episode in collaboration with Copenhagen capacity for the podcast. OGs. You may remember that that was our first episode ever. Um, so I'm very excited to, to revisit this. Um, and today we are journeying back to the beautiful city because Copenhagen has officially been designated as the World Capital of Architecture for 2023 by UNESCO on the recommendation of the general assembly of the internal Union of Architects, u i A.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:01:17 Um, so a little bit more backstory before we dig in, um, is that the World Capital of Architecture Initiative was launched in order to highlight the key role of architecture, city planning and culture in shaping urban identity and sustainable urban development. So today of course, we're diving into the topic, topic of architecture and really looking also at this crosspoint of architecture and smart city solutions. Um, so I hope you all are excited. I am now. I've kept you waiting long enough, um, before introducing our guest today. Um, so first off, I want to introduce Camila Fund. She's the chief city architect for the city of Copenhagen in Denmark. Welcome onto the show, Camila.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:01:57 Thank you so much for having me.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:00 It is absolutely our pleasure. Um, and joining you today, we have, um, another great guest. Um, her name is Stefanie Weidner. She's a director at Werner Soak Copenhagen and the director of sustainability strategies of the whole Verna Soak Group. So, welcome, Stefanie.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:02:17 Hello everybody, and thank you for the invitation.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:02:21 Absolutely, our pleasure. So, um, we always start off with a little bit of a teaser to get warmed up into the episode. Um, and the teaser that we prepared today, uh, for both of you is what is your favorite building in Copenhagen that most people would not expect? Uh, Camilla, maybe you wanna go first?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:02:40 Oh, that's like asking a mother to choose between your favorite children. That's not fair. <laugh>. Um, but I'm, I must say I'm, I'm particularly fond of 1950s, uh, public estate housing. There are some like beautiful, beautiful, uh, brick, um, uh, examples from that time.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:01 Oh, cool. Nice. Good answer. Uh, Stefanie, you're, you're still pondering, it's still d also difficult for you to choose
Stefanie Weidner 00:03:08 <laugh>. It, it is super difficult. I mean, has so much to offer, especially when you look into the, uh, new, uh, buildings and also all of those, um, residential buildings that have been built. And I think I might go with one of those residential buildings and, um, it is just opposite of the Papi Island. So, um, done by Cobe and especially in summer, it's such a great atmosphere that you get there. And I think, um, even though it's probably quite high class, uh, apartments, but, uh, the area and how they developed all of this, um, yeah, this neighborhood, um, seems to work very, very well. And I, and I really like the buildings too, so, um, Bridgestone there as well, but, um, new newer ones.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:03:58 Yeah, nice. Going for the brickstone, old and new. Love it. Um, good. So let's dig in. Now I'm getting into the, the brunt of the interview. Um, so Camilla, I would love to start with you, and you have a very interesting background. I know, and I know everyone wants to know. What led you to where you are today?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:04:18 Well, I'm trained as an architect from Copenhagen, and I did my PhD there as well with famous Urbanist y Gayle. And so obviously his theories about people and how they interact with cities have greatly shaped, uh, my thinking and my career. And I continued to work at Gil Architects, um, where I was a partner for 11 years before joining the city of Copenhagen in 2019. So, uh, I was privileged enough, um, in, at Gil to work with many, many cities internationally and, and, um, helping to create strategies, uh, for those cities, uh, and in chat with their politicians. So I think for me, that's like a natural segue then to come back to Copenhagen and say, yes, we are, uh, world famed as, you know, a great livable city, but we can do more. And I really wanted to be a part of shaping that.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:05:19 Yeah, really cool story. Actually, one unplanned question I have for you is that, uh, I'm wondering, because you did this work in your past with other cities, what is one lesson do you think that you've taken from, from that that you've applied to Copenhagen?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:05:34 Well, I was part of, um, the work on Broadway in Times Square in New York in 2007, eight. And this idea of testing before you implement is something that, um, we invented there together with the, the local D o t, uh, department of Transportation. Um, and I've really taken that method, uh, with me as a way of both understanding our investments in cities better before we make them, but also as a way of, of engaging with the public in a very, like, open, democratic, experimental way. So we're doing that in coag now based on the learnings from New York.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:06:12 Ah, very interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Um, and Stefanie, um, same question to you. Can you gimme a little bit of your backstory? What led you to where you are today?
Stefanie Weidner 00:06:24 I'm also an architect by profession, and after my graduation I wanted to learn more. I wanted to know more about sustainability because that was, um, even during my studies and even though they, no, like 12 years ago, um, it really played a quite big role for me. So I wanted to learn more, and that's why I also did my PhD. So that's, uh, quite interesting that Kamala did one too, because for architects is not something very usual. And, um, my focus was more on the resource consumption of, uh, built environment and on different residential structures and buildings. And, um, so that's where I come from. I really like to look at, um, what we as a construction industry consume in terms of resources, but also in terms of, uh, emissions that we emit and that we cause. So that's been the focus of my, my work.
Stefanie Weidner 00:07:15 And, um, I've been going deeper into all sorts of, um, holistic approaches of sustainability because, you know, there's so much more to that. Um, we have the circularity that we're gonna dig into today as well. And, uh, then there's also environmental, um, planning in terms of, um, what, uh, are we rather a low tech or high tech building? What technologies do we use? But then there's also microclimate that we need to look at and, um, urban heat island effects that need to be taken care of, especially in urban structure. So, um, yeah, the whole bunch. And that's why, um, sustainability has always been my personal focus and I'm so happy that I can follow this, uh, personal agenda in my, um, business day to day routine. Yeah. So, um, yeah, all of the sustainability topics, that's my background and I'm glad that Copenhagen is so advanced so that I can learn from that, but also maybe bring some of the, um, insights with me into Copenhagen.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:08:18 Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interesting as well. I love your holistic approach. Um, so, uh, maybe back to you Cam, um, what we're, we're having this episode today because Copenhagen was named the UNESCO U I a world Capital of Architecture Architecture. So what does that mean to you, and why do you think that that's important?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:08:40 I think it gives us a chance to reflect on both, uh, our heritage, uh, where do we come from, um, and then to discuss how are we using architecture and urban planning in terms of, you know, the immense planetary problems that, that are before us in terms of sustainability and architecture and urban planning play an important role because all of the policies land in people's everyday lives. So how we live, how we move about in cities, uh, the products we're buying, everything is physical. And in order to make these shifts, these changes, architects and designers, urban planners are an integral part of solutions in terms of creating better, more sustainable lives. And I think that is, for me, the outcome of, uh, the architecture capital and to discuss this and to, to, um, to learn from each other, uh, because it's a great opportunity for the rest of the world to come to Copenhagen. So we can share some of our solutions, but I'm just as interested in learning from the many, many people that are coming here this year.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:09:53 Yeah. Um, happening first week of July, right,
Camilla Van Deurs 00:09:56 Exactly. So we're celebrating the year, uh, throughout all 2023. And then the highlight is the ua, uh, world Congress of Architecture, which is in the beginning of July where 10,000 people will come to cope.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:10:11 Cool. That's exciting. Um, and uh, Stefanie, do you have something to add there, um, about what that means for, for Copenhagen?
Stefanie Weidner 00:10:19 Yeah, I, I'm totally with Camilla there because I think it's, um, a super good chance for Copenhagen to, um, also communicate internationally what it has been doing for the last years and to, to show the world what, uh, what can be achieved when you're really behind those goals, and when you have an objective that you're following, and on the other hand, to, um, yeah, really learn from others. Maybe what I would wish for, um, is that maybe the focus just on architecture could be loosened up a little bit and, um, extended to the whole, um, to the whole construction industry because, um, I know architects are like the most important, probably the most important, uh, part of it because they need to plan it. They need to, uh, give incentives and option op Yeah. Options for solutions. Um, but those challenges that we are facing cannot be solved just by one industry on its own or just by one, um, um, profession on its own. So we always need to have, um, yeah, the talks in between different sectors and also in between different specialties, like don't forget the engineerings, uh, and all of those, um, yeah, engineers that need to provide us with solutions and, um, help us there. So this will be, um, my hope that, um, the, the sole focus on architecture could be widened up a little bit towards, um, engineering as well and other parts like, sorry, industry and so on, of course, do play a big role too.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:11:57 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Actually, speaking on that, um, you know, most of our listeners are actually more on the smart city side of things and are not really, we don't have a large architect base of listeners. So I'm wondering if you, Stefanie, have any, um, obvious crossover points, um, that you see between, you know, smart city concepts? Of course, you mentioned circularity and sustainability, um, but maybe more of these, uh, crossover points that you see between smart city concepts and architecture.
Stefanie Weidner 00:12:27 Well, of course there are so many intersections that could, uh, cross your mind. Um, but I think what we first need to establish is what do we understand when we talk of smart city? And, um, for my part, I do understand that, for example, there is a, um, highly efficient infrastructure where you have different, um, transport, um, possibilities, but all, all electric, no emissions in the air. We have a total clean air. We have a lot of sensors though that, uh, will know, uh, what the demand is in order to really offer, um, the yeah, to, or to provide then just what you really need. Um, so everything's connected with those centers. And I think, um, that's my point of view. But of course there are different, different scenarios what everybody, uh, imagines when speaking of a smart city. Um, but yet coming, coming from my point of view, there are so many interactions where architects need to, an architecture needs to, um, offer solutions where, um, there need to be some, some new typologies maybe, I mean, lots of, um, lots of competitions and so on are focusing also on mobility hubs.
Stefanie Weidner 00:13:42 I think this will be a genre of, um, buildings of type building types, um, that we'll see much more often in the future because we will need to really offer solutions, and that's where architecture needs to come in. And, um, on an urban level, of course, also urban, um, design is done by architects and city planners. So here the interaction is also very, very intense because, um, again, solutions need to be offered and, um, new typologies, building typologies need to work together with new transport, um, methods and, uh, yeah, new ways of, um, of living in a city, new, new ways of working in a city. So, um, all of those components need to be solved, and I think that's where architects will need to work on and where we need to offer solutions.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:14:36 Yeah, absolutely. Camila, do you have any like maybe examples or, um, any obvious examples in your head of, of how you work with smart city concepts within, um, Copenhagen?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:14:48 Well, um, yes, many, but I, just a second. You know, one, one that springs to mind and this connection between smart city technologies and, and, uh, architecture is an example from this, um, 1950s estate neighborhood in, uh, peace trivia I mentioned, uh, initially, and there we've been doing some work, um, with the IA four cities, uh, project, and we've collaborated with three startups, uh, about artificial intelligence. And, and one of them has been developing software that will predict energy and, and solar panel, uh, solar outtake from, um, individual buildings and sort of predict what is the best time, uh, and when will will, um, the solar power be available. And the way we've been landing it, sort of physically in this neighborhood is through different experiments and, and technological innovation of solar paneling roofs to fit the architectural heritage of this neighborhood. So developing solar panels that look like, um, brick, uh, roofs, which are very, very traditional in Copenhagen.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:16:00 Um, and so for me, this technology, the AI and the software is of course not necessary for, um, for, for the digital solutions to work, but they also have to interact in a beautiful aesthetic way with our, our context. And I think that's very, very typical for how Copenhagen approaches, um, all of these smart city technologies, that it's not just about designing a, a technical solution or software solution, hardware solution, but it's about how does it interact with our cities. And so most of the areas that we're working with, um, kind of have, you know, a beautifully designed public space where the solutions, whether it's air pollution or about climate, uh, resilience or, uh, energy adaptation, it kind of lands in a physical space. Yeah. Um, and I, I think that's very much the way we're approaching this entire field to see the AI and the technology as a method to create better physical spaces as well.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:17:13 I love how you put that. Um, I'm also wondering if you can share a little bit around the development and the relationship you see between circularity and architecture, um, because yeah, we actually did a podcast episode a little while ago around circular economy, and, um, I'm, I'm personally very interested in this topic and how it overlaps with kind of built environment and architecture topics. Mm-hmm.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:17:35 I mean, we've been, um, spearheading, um, a European program, uh, the circuit program, which is European Union program, um, between Copenhagen, greater London, uh, Hamburg and the Helsinki region, and looking at how can we expand the notion of circularity within the building industry, because obviously, uh, about a third of the CO2 emissions in the, in the city are, are from the building industry. A other third is from mobility, uh, as mentioned. So mobility sector is really important as well. And, and in this program we've been looking at, um, buildings as, uh, resources as libraries and how we, through, um, mapping and data harvesting can, uh, can know more about the streams of materials in our cities, uh, when they'll be available, uh, where they are in the city, and to start to investigate how can we, through smart city solutions, then, you know, have a better understanding of the built environment as a resource.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:18:44 Um, and the program, the circuit program is, is ending this year, and we're using the, the, uh, sort of final session of the world capital of architecture to highlight these, um, the results, um, that will provide legislation on both the eu, uh, national and, uh, a local level. So I think, you know, we're understanding that well, 85% of our future city is already here, <laugh>. We're not gonna build as much in the future, and we have to reuse and, and adapt, um, buildings, existing buildings to a much higher degree. And to do that, we need to understand what's there, and we need to understand the processes, um, for harvesting, storing, transporting, all of these materials and part smart city solutions are part of that discussion.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:19:41 Yeah. What, what else is part of the discussion? Like, um, I hear this, you know, kind of sustain, sustainability is obviously a word that is thrown around a lot. What does, like sustainable design and those type of concepts mean to you?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:19:54 Well, I think right now we're at a point where it's still a relatively new concept. I mean, relatively in like the history of the city, which is more than 850 years. And so there is a certain like, aesthetic of sustainability right now, which is very visual. It's very communicative. So, um, a lot of architects, um, are working, you know, with layering of materials like exhibiting like the roughness of these sustainable materials. And to me, at least they have a beautiful patina. Um, you know, they're really interesting tactile projects. But I do think that it's sort of a phase because we ha we are in these early stages of circularity where we have to be very, very communicative about, um, the materials. And I think, you know, looking to furniture design, which has kind of been ahead of this movement much, much earlier with cradle su cradle thoughts and kind of design for disassembly for, you know, 20, 30 years.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:21:00 I don't see that that, um, kind of visual aesthetics of sustainability being that prominent anymore in furniture design. You know, there was a time when everything was like cardboard chairs and granulated plastics and, and very visually communicative about the circularity. And, and that's changed over time as it has become a more integrated part of the furniture design industry. And I do think that architecture will get there, you know, and whether it's next year or within the next 10 or 20 or 30 years, sustainability and circularity is gonna be an integral part of everything we do. So we might not need to, to advertise it quite a, quite as much as we're doing visually right now.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:21:48 Yeah. With Copenhagen leading the way is the goal, right? Yeah.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:21:52 I mean, some of the, the listeners might want to check out, uh, Danish architect, an le who has done some really interesting projects, um, about, uh, reuse of materials.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:22:05 Good tip. Thank you. Um, Stefanie, I'm wondering if you can also speak to this a little bit. As you, you, from my understanding, you're working in other cities on these concepts of sustainability. Um, what have you seen is kind of the steps that most cities need and are taking to, to meet these goals?
Stefanie Weidner 00:22:25 Well, other cities, uh, do have their own agenda as well. I mean, I'm, we are working quite a lot in Hamburg and, uh, in Hamburg, the half the city, which is the haba, um, area, um, they are developing a huge area just for, um, different usages. And, uh, so they are really starting from scratch. They're reusing the landside, um, that were harbor before. And so, so partly also contaminated, um, which is a tough challenge also in speaking of the foundation, et cetera. But, um, so I can compare a little bit to, to Hamburg, because I think they are comparable those two cities and have different approaches, but maybe both are, um, working. So, um, for the half, half a city in Hamburg, um, they have chosen the attempt of trying something else with sustainability. They want to have, um, developers offer sustainable solutions by telling them, if you do have those sustainability goals that are set beforehand, like, for example, reduce CO2 emissions for the embodied emissions to down to 20%, or, um, have a circularity, um, approach to, to four of your building components, like facade needs to be circular and the floor slabs and so on.
Stefanie Weidner 00:23:54 So, um, they have real concrete, um, goals that, um, the developers need to follow and to follow through, especially, and for that they get the, the, the plot for a cheaper price. So I think it's a quite good deal to, um, give incentive, um, for developers and for investors, um, to follow a really sustainable, sustainable, um, sustainability route. And, um, I mean, price does lead the way somehow. Still we are not there that everybody's just, um, yeah, working on an ideal idealistic, um, approach, but you really need some, um, economic incentives too. So I think it's a good, good steal to say, um, let's, let's follow that and I give you a cheaper price so you can really, um, invest into sustainability. So I really like this approach. But, um, of course, Copenhagen has so much other benefits that they, they also offer, I mean, they have this, um, goal of carbon neutrality by 2025.
Stefanie Weidner 00:25:02 This is, uh, unique in Europe. It will be the first capital then by that going carbon neutral, hopefully that works. And, um, up to 70% recycling of municipality solid waste. So all of those really, um, fixed goals, I think we need more of that. And what I see, especially in other parts, like for example, Germany, is that it all goes very soft. So you say, ah, we want to decrease, uh, by maybe 30% compared to 1990. And, and so nobody really knows what's, what's the goal? I mean, those comparisons are really hard to grasp for, for, um, people that are not working with them every day, whole day. So, uh, you need really need some, some headlines, some concrete headlines. And I think Copenhagen is doing that quite well. And I hope that other cities will jump on that and, um, work on their communication and set the goals and also offer solutions and offer methods to reach those solutions.
Stefanie Weidner 00:26:01 And, um, yeah, one, one method, for example, is to really offer a network like, um, Copenhagen C Circular, um, that's also a very innovative platform run by the city that, um, is focusing on developing tomorrow circular, um, solutions. And I think we need more of that because we need a, a whole network, not just for the build building industry, but as I mentioned before, for, um, a wider scale and to include different industries into this circular approach. Because who knows, maybe, um, some other kind of industry, um, has this byproduct in their, uh, pro production process that is not needed anymore, and it could be a very valuable, um, construction material. So we need to talk more. And that's, I think, something that's been done in Denmark and in Copenhagen in particular. Very well.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:26:58 Yeah. I actually wanna touch on that a little bit more on the, on the talking more and the building up partnerships. Um, how have you seen international companies and different partnerships contributing to Copenhagen's transition towards, uh, becoming a more sustainable capital? And why do you think that they're important?
Stefanie Weidner 00:27:16 I think it's very important, and I think, uh, it does happen too. I mean, um, I don't think I'd tell any secrets by that, but, uh, in, in Denmark there are some lobbies that are very strong, for example, um, precast concrete elements or also, um, um, in terms of insulation material, there is a quite strong, um, lobby there. And, um, it's just these, these lobbies are, um, they formed solutions over the last years and decades that are being used very broadly and very widely and successfully, but that are not necessarily the best and most sustainable solution. So I think especially in those cases, it does make sense to look internationally and to see what other countries and what other industries and, um, yeah, producers can offer. Uh, for example, timber has been, um, quite neglected over the last decades in, in Denmark. Uh, of course, we don't have a lot of timber in, in den in Denmark, but, um, it's also okay to import timber if it doesn't come from too far away.
Stefanie Weidner 00:28:29 But, but still, it, it needs to have a discussion and we need to be able to discuss different options and different versions and different solutions and not be just, um, cut off because we've been doing this for the last years and, uh, it's been working, so we'll continue with it. And I think that's where, um, it really makes sense for Denmark, for Copenhagen to include international companies, include international firms. And I feel like it's been happening and it, like, it's working. And also I, myself, I'm going a lot into discussions and, um, yeah, in, into talks with, um, with local partners, um, to, to really discuss other options and to look at other solutions that are possible and could be used in Denmark too.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:29:16 Yeah, really consulting the international market. Um, I love it. Uh, Camila, what, um, what partnerships has Copenhagen made with like international companies, or likewise?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:29:27 Well, well, I think one of our, our most famous company collaborative is, is probably Google. So we've been partnering with Google, um, to monitor air quality and, and just using their Google Street view cars to gather a lot of data and then create, um, physical strategies, uh, called Thrive Zones around those, to talk about air quality in terms of, of, uh, where children move in the city. And, um, just providing general health. So I think these, you know, mega companies, international companies have a fantastic platform to help cities already, but there are so many great, uh, smaller, uh, businesses that are developing solutions that we want to look at. And I think the benefit for us in Copenhagen is that we're a relatively small city, small country, and so the distance between policy makers and, and civil service and, and, and companies is not that great.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:30:34 It's a, it's a small, or is, you know, it, it's, it's very close. And the, um, we, we know each other and, and there's a real commitment. We have what's known as the Copenhagen Solutions Lab, which is a smart cities organization. And, and the, the purpose is to use the city as a living laboratory. And I think it's possible because we are a relatively small city. Um, and, and there is this political support and commitment to work, uh, part and understanding that because we are a small city, small country, we need to collaborate. We need to have talents from, you know, all over the world to come and to, to grow this knowledge together.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:31:18 Yeah, absolutely. So we're almost done, I promise, but, um, I, I always like to give you, uh, a bit of time now, um, to talk about anything that you think that we missed that you really want the listeners to know. Um, or you can also use a time if you have any questions for each other. Um, so do you have anything that you really want to put out there?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:31:43 I, I think from my end, um, I, I think that you, you were kind enough to mention this, um, ambition of being climate neutral by 2025. And I can already tell you now, we're not gonna quite make it, but, uh, but it has really helped, helped drive innovation, and it's, it's, uh, we've reduced by now, uh, carbon by 86%, and within the next two years, we're gonna keep, keep struggling, but I don't think we'll quite make it. Um, but what we're, what we've done is a lot of the sort of very large, uh, structural changes in the energy sector and mobility and extra electrification and central heating, and what we need to dress now is like everyday life choices. What do, how do we act as, as, um, citizens, um, because it's about the consumption-based, um, uh, emissions as well. And I think smart city solutions can really help that, because when you become aware, I think we saw it, all of us saw it, you know, with our electric bills and this presence, you know, global crisis of the Ukraine war, you know, having that feedback loop very, very directly about how you're interacting in various ways with your environment gives you a real incentive to start to change.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:33:06 And so I'm hoping that technology can help, uh, with consumer based, uh, emissions and because that's what it's gonna take, Copenhagen, the next kind of step in term terms of, uh, reducing our total emissions.
Stefanie Weidner 00:33:22 Yes, thank you, Kim. I, I'd also like to, to add on that, that, um, I think that given the challenges, um, we should also start rethinking given setups that we are using, uh, given norms and, um, requirements on con on construction materials and components. Um, for example, in terms of acoustics, I mean, is it really that bad to hear at least a little bit of your neighbor once in a while? Do you really need, uh, so thick walls in order to really feel alone and not hear or see anything from the world around you? I think those, those things really need to be rethought of as from us as, uh, as users, as people living in those cities, working in those cities. And, um, I think it would have a really high impact on the resource consumption. And then another thing that I'd like to highlight is, um, in terms of, um, renovation.
Stefanie Weidner 00:34:24 So I mean, that's a huge challenge ahead of us. You said 85% of, um, of the buildings, uh, in the future are already built. I totally agree, because I think renovation transformation, um, of existing buildings is like one of the core topics that we would need to follow. And also here, it does make sense to really, um, think wisely how much insulation you really put on your walls and how much you really need to do there. Because we want to be carbon neutral, which means we need to change all of the, um, or we need to reduce our fossil fuels. And that's our primary goal. And yes, so I think we really need to challenge our thoughts and challenge, um, what we've been doing and thinking over the last years if they're just really applying or if there are alternative solutions as well. So, um, yeah, I hope this, this could make a fairly clear point with that. But, um, we only reach that when we work interdisciplinary. So I think, um, absolutely. I already made that clear that interdisciplinary <laugh> is, is like the key, and I really think that that would be great. So thanks for, for this talk today. I think it was really valuable. And I'd like to continue. Cam <laugh>.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:35:49 Yes, <laugh>. Um, good. So before you, before we let you go, we actually, um, have our lovely segment that we, that we do. So we do a different segment on each of the episodes. Um, and so it's a bit of a fun, uh, a fun little game. Um, this one that we picked for you is one of my favorites. It's called Roll With the Punches. Roll with the Punches. And so this or that questions quickly and with your first instincts, um, don't worry, they're not that challenging, but, um, at the end, you'll, you'll get to explain any of your answers, so we'll just move quickly through it. Um, so Camila, I'm sorry, but, uh, I've selected you to go first. Sure. <laugh>. Um, so, uh, cam will answer and then Stefanie, you, you answer directly afterwards. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, so coffee or tea?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:36:46 Tea.
Stefanie Weidner 00:36:47 Tea.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:36:48 Open floor plans or defined room divisions.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:36:52 Uh, defined
Stefanie Weidner 00:36:55 Open,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:36:57 Uh, public parks or rooftop gardens,
Camilla Van Deurs 00:36:59 Public parks,
Stefanie Weidner 00:37:01 Same public parks,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:37:03 Oli Gardens or Newhaven?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:37:06 Tli
Stefanie Weidner 00:37:08 Oli. Yeah, <laugh>,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:37:09 <laugh> wide boulevards or narrow streets?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:37:13 Narrow streets.
Stefanie Weidner 00:37:16 N white boulevards. I'll need to explain. Okay. Yeah. <laugh>,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:37:20 <laugh>, preserving old neighborhoods or developing new ones.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:37:24 Preserving,
Stefanie Weidner 00:37:26 Preserving
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:37:28 <laugh>. Good answers. Um, do you want to, uh, def, uh, explain any of your answers?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:37:34 I think we disagreed on scale, didn't we?
Stefanie Weidner 00:37:38 Um, on the white scale of the, of the, um, is
Camilla Van Deurs 00:37:42 Of the Boulevard. Yeah.
Stefanie Weidner 00:37:43 Boulevard. Yeah. I,
Camilla Van Deurs 00:37:45 I, I must say, I, I just landed yesterday, um, from Venice. I was at the opening of the Venice Binali and just, you know, Maning, the scale of the, of, of that city, just, it feels so human. Um, and, and so magical and the proximity, I think is, um, important in terms of delivering a density, um, to, to a very small area. And just the, the human scale is wonderful. So narrow streets,
Stefanie Weidner 00:38:17 Definitely. No, I, I totally agree that, and the reason why I said is, uh, for once, I, I didn't want to always have the same answer as you
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:38:25 <laugh>, but,
Stefanie Weidner 00:38:25 Uh, on the other hand, um, I, I wouldn't say boulevards, de de depends on how you define it in, in my head. Uh, those boulevards are a green meander of, uh, parks rather than, uh, than streets. As you'd probably had in mind when you, uh, thought of, um, narrow ones, because I, I totally agree. We need density and we need, uh, to have, um, yeah, high efficiency of, of floor plan usage or of, um, ground use usage.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:38:58 But it's, it's interesting that we're both thinking about, uh, these streets not as streets, but as public spaces or parks, right? <laugh>, that's a common denominator.
Stefanie Weidner 00:39:08 That's, that's, that's totally, uh, interesting because I don't think that infrastructure, especially streets, like for cars, should be dominant in cities at all ever again, because they had the last 60, 70 decades in our cities, and now it's time to really put the human scale in mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, yes, of course it would be good to have a human scale also on, on, on the smaller cozy one. Um, but as well, maybe on a, uh, yeah, very green open area where you have, um, a good way of, um, of, uh, air transmission and so on. So, um, both were privileged goods,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:39:50 <laugh>. Um, that other one that you disagreed on was the open floor plans and the defined room divisions, right? Uh, do you want to explain a bit?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:39:59 I, I'm just finding, you know, that, um, as I get older, I have trouble concentrating if I'm like, you know, I, I do spend a lot of my time in, in meetings and gatherings, public talk talks, and when I need to get work done, I need to concentrate.
Stefanie Weidner 00:40:18 Yes. And for me, I'm, I've always been working in an open, open space, and I really love the way of communication. And I think communication is also one of the most important things that we have. I'm also quite a lot of meetings, um, but sometimes I have, um, the situation that after my meeting, um, people sitting around me are like, oh, that's so cool. Okay, what, what project is that? And so I really like this, um, this interaction that, that comes from, uh, working in a, in an open space. But of course, for some talks, it's very good to have an, a smaller, um, room where you can sit and talk quietly.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:40:59 Yeah. Yes. I, I like how it is in Blocks Hub, actually in Copenhagen, how you have some of the, the closed rooms, but then, uh, some very open spaces as well. So a combination there.
Stefanie Weidner 00:41:10 We have a lot of those telephone booths as well, so yeah, we can always go in there and talk there. Yeah.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:41:16 Yeah, absolutely. Um, good. So now we're at the last question and is the question that we ask every single guest and, uh, we, we kind of touched on on it before, um, but it's, uh, to you, what is a smart city? Uh, cam, do you wanna go first?
Camilla Van Deurs 00:41:33 Well, smart City is just a, a, a tool for having a livable city, a great space, um, to live, to work, to play, to love. Uh, so for me, smart city and smart city technology is an enabler.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:41:48 I love that. I've never heard it, um, described as a tool before. I ask this to every guest. So I, I love that description. Uh, Stefanie,
Stefanie Weidner 00:41:57 Yeah, I already, um, named parts of it, but I really like your definition. Kala too. <laugh>. It's, uh, it's great to see it as an enabler, and I think it's, um, it's an enabler. Yes. And maybe also the product, um, that we will gain from, um, artificial intelligence, yes, from, but from a very, very dense and intense communication. And this will be a communication between people, uh, that are working, people that are living, um, people that are, um, moving around there and, um, then all sorts of transportation and all sorts of buildings like, um, to have just communication everywhere and to have sensors and, uh, information available everywhere. And I think information, that's the easiest thing to reach in theory. But in practice, it seems to be the hardest thing to reach because I think it's at the basis of everything. And I really hope that, um, by getting closer to the smart city, we'll gain more and more information and we'll have better foundation for our decisions for the future. So that's what I am hoping for at least.
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:43:09 Well, I love both of your descriptions there, so thank you so much. Um, now I would like to also invite all of the listeners and you to a special event from Copenhagen capacity. Um, it's on the 3rd of July in Copenhagen during the u I A World Congress that Camila mentioned earlier. And of course, it's put on by Copenhagen capacity and invest in Scon, and it's a network and mingle green urban features event. So we'll link, um, the, in the show notes, the registration link, um, yeah, make sure you're there. Uh, and with that, I'll let you all continue on your day. Thank you so much for, for taking the time to both of you, Camila and Stefanie. Um, yeah, we, we don't talk actually enough about architecture on this show, and I really love this holistic, um, interdisciplinary, uh, work and, and things that you mentioned, Stefanie. So, um, very appreciated to have both of your perspectives. Thank you so much.
Camilla Van Deurs 00:44:01 Thank you.
Stefanie Weidner 00:44:02 Thanks was such a nice talk. Thanks,
Tamlyn Shimizu 00:44:05 <laugh>. Yeah, really enjoyed it as well. So yeah, and to all of our listeners, uh, don't forget, you can always create a free account on BABLE Smart Cities, EU to find out more about smart city projects, solutions, implementations, all these cool things happening. Um, and with that, thank you so much. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
