Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Tamlyn Shimizu: Welcome to Smart in the city, the BABLE podcast, where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
I am your host, Tamlyn Shimizu and I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
Smart in the city is brought to you by BABLE Smart Cities we enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the BABLE platform at BABLE Smartcities EU welcome back to another episode of Smart in the City. This is a special episode hosted by one of my colleagues, Peter Griffiths, who works as the global urban futures expert in the UK and Ireland region for BABLE, and who has traveled all the way to Ireland and is hosting this podcast live. So I hope you enjoy the change of voice and pace and I'll catch you next time.
[00:01:07] Peter Griffiths: Today we have a very special guest who I'm joining in the city of Cork in Ireland. We will be discussing his plans for the year ahead, the challenges facing Cork, and how he envisions a greener, more sustainable future for the city.
Our guest today is Councillor Dan Boyle, the newly appointed lord Mayor of Cork and the first Green Party councillor to hold this position. Welcome to the podcast, Councillor Boyle.
[00:01:34] Dan Boyle: Hello and thank you for the opportunity.
[00:01:37] Peter Griffiths: Before we dive into any serious questions, let's start with something light to warm up. Councillor Boyle, if you could have any superpower to help you in your role as Lord Mayor, what would it be and why?
[00:01:50] Dan Boyle: Good gosh, probably endless energy, because I find I get tired very easily and the schedule in my office can often be quite exacting. And sleep at night is less than it should be. So energy is what I'd look for, renewable if possible.
[00:02:08] Peter Griffiths: That's a brilliant answer. I think I'd love some renewable energy myself. So when you solve that, I'll be your first visitor. But coming back to today, you're thinking, what do you see as the main challenges facing Cork right now, and what do you believe is needed to accelerate change?
[00:02:28] Dan Boyle: Corker is in a fairly unusual situation in that we are trying to face two ways at once. We are one of the over 100 countries that are taking part in the climate neutral initiative through the European Union, which makes us have a target of seeking the 50% reduction by 2030. But we are also a city that is committed, in terms of our irish national spatial strategy, to become a counter point to Dublin and grow in terms of size and population and trying to be climate neutral while being a growing city is the twin challenge we have in the decades to come.
[00:03:14] Peter Griffiths: So you've mentioned there both the role of partnerships, but also perhaps some healthy local competition with Dublin. Be good to get a sense of how you feel these two areas of corks dynamic help you achieve some of your sustainable ambitions.
[00:03:30] Dan Boyle: Well, I think Cork has natural advantages.
The Cork Dublin thing, I think, is a type of thing you'd find in most countries in terms of capital cities and next largest cities.
But from a Cork perspective, we instinctively know we're better and we're better placed. I think.
I think for spatial strategy in the country, it's important that we have better population distribution, better distribution of infrastructure, better economic opportunity for citizens throughout the island rather than in and around the national capital. So that's where that's coming from. But Cork has a long history itself, and we would argue, because of our location, we're the southernmost city in the Republic of Ireland.
We're possibly and probably more european in our aspect, closest to continental Europe.
And our historical and cultural ties would be more influence from neighbors on that side than maybe the neighbors we would have had and would influence many of the irish population centers on the east coast in particular.
So participation in the EU, 100 cities and climate neutrality is part of just another chapter of that, and we're looking forward to the opportunity of making the most of it.
[00:05:02] Peter Griffiths: No, I think that you raised many interesting points just in your comment there. And I think having visited Dublin yesterday and visiting Hawke today, it's clear that they're two very different cities. Even just topographically. I had to climb a Yule for the first time, which is something really quite pleasant about arriving in a city and immediately realizing, even though it's part of the same country, it's completely different.
Moving towards some of the more local issues facing. Facing Cork, it would be really good just to get your sense of, as the first Green Party lord mayor, how you feel you can make Corker, Greener City, maybe some of the specific environmental initiatives that you have in mind.
[00:05:43] Dan Boyle: I think we have several. I may be the first Green Party lord mayor, but I was first elected onto this council in 1991. So I'd like to think that some of the changes and evolutions have been influenced by the type of campaigning that have been done by people with an outlook that's more sustainable and thinks of the climate in general and the environment in particular.
In recent times, we benefited, if that's not the right word to use from the pandemic and that it allowed us a space to introduce a number of initiatives. We largely pedestrianized our city center. 17 streets were pedestrianized during that period. And we introduced a significant expansion of our cycleway network, many of which were.
Were segregated, if at least temporarily, with plastic wands, rather than more ideal permanent segregation.
And we're a city that lives with a constant threat in terms of being a low lying city, a port city that suffers much from flooding, and that in itself is both a natural threat and something that gets exacerbated through the climate emergency that we're experiencing. So that's something that we're working hard to achieve. It's not just a tidal aspect of the river, which our city center is an island with two channels of the same river, but a lot of our infrastructure for dealing with wastewater and storm waters are something that we're constantly needing to examine and improve, and that's a challenge in its own right. But in overall terms, I think cork, as a city, and most cities, needs to look at how it presents itself. It's a city that our open space needs to be used more creatively, and that the green spaces in particular needs to be multiplied and magnified. And if there's an imprint to be left on the city from my being in this office, I'd like to see those things being achieved.
[00:07:56] Peter Griffiths: Yeah, I'd like to come back to flooding in a bit more detail. But before we do that, there are many cities across Europe, as you mentioned, that kind of as a legacy from COVID managed to convert streets to more active uses, cycling and walking. But it seems Cork has been particularly successful in retaining these now that the pandemic has receded. Whereas in many other parts of Europe, where, in a sense, these measures have been reversed and then sometimes actually become more car dominant. And so it'd be good to have your. Almost your insights in terms of how it is that cork managed to retain these changes to the bulk environment post pandemic.
[00:08:36] Dan Boyle: Well, my opinion would be that the introduction of the infrastructure should be an argument in itself. And it's persuaded people that this approach to road space, making it more democratic, looking at what road users in their widest sense, is something to be encouraged. And when put in place, it does work. So we haven't had a backlash to that.
There has been, and I must be honest and admitted, in terms of newer projects, particularly in suburban areas, you still get the natural reticence about introducing new pieces of infrastructure, new cycleways, anything that changes the habit of car dependence, which in our society is as great as you find anywhere. In fact, it's still quite striking. It's about three quarters of all journeys in our city.
We are going through a public consultation on ramping up our bus network in terms of the number of bus journeys that we're encouraging people to take, but more particularly the infrastructure that is attached to that, and how the road space and traffic signaling can be updated to improve the experience and get more people to use public transport. So that's a significant investment that we're hoping that 600 million will be put into in the coming years.
The ideal, if we can convince enough people, is to get that better mix of public transport, cycling and walking at the expense of unnecessary private car use.
[00:10:13] Peter Griffiths: Yeah, it's brilliant to see all these initiatives rolled out. And I was reading earlier today, actually, just about how Ireland is quite successfully expanded use of public transport in the last few years. And it'd be good to have a sense of, you know, where you see public transport going within Cork. What are the different initiatives that the city is looking at to retain that modal shift away from cars towards public transport and maybe more access, more active modes?
[00:10:44] Dan Boyle: Well, recent years have been very significant and there is funding in place and developments occurring on a number of fronts. The bus investment I've just mentioned, but on the north side of the city and coming in from the east side of the city, there will be a significant revamping of a suburban rail network. There is a small scale network now that goes about 30 km on both sides of the city, to mallow in one direction and to Middleton and cove on the other.
Got an investment that's increasing the number of train journeys that are going to take place. There's a revamping of the actual trains themselves.
It's being turned into a dual track, it's being electrified, and the number of services are going to increase to a ten minute service, also an increased network where at present, there's possibly about half a dozen station between those three points to treble that in terms of locations where there will be rail stops and increase enormously the number of people who use that service. On the south side of the city, we're hoping with a similar level of investment, to introduce a light rail system that would go on a 15 to 20 kilometer trajectory from the west to the east and link in with the railway station and have a coordinated approach to multimodal or modal approach to transport that is probably the slowest of the three legs, but it's in train, if you pardon the pun, and we're hoping that decisions will be made in the next few weeks about the route to be followed and the timeline to put it in place and eventually having it operated. So public transport is a three legged stool in Cork. It's a much enhanced service. It's a suburban rail service that is many times more multiple than it has been in the past. And it's the introduction, a long awaited introduction, of a light rail system, which I should mention did exist in the early part of the 20th century, until the 1930s. So in some aspects, our transport system is very much going back to the future, but we believe it's the better approach.
[00:13:18] Peter Griffiths: It's a sad truth that so many cities had functioning light rail systems not even that long ago, and it's good to see some of those being put back. I want to link the conversation, because in many ways all the things that you're talking about are around decarbonizing transport. I know that you've also spoken about decarbonizing buildings from the point of housing and its role within a functioning city. It would be good to get your sense of what role housing is going to play in terms of the city reaching its green objectives.
[00:13:53] Dan Boyle: Housing that which is owned and managed by the city council. We've had a large scale and very successful program of retrofitting our multi unit buildings, largely apartment complex, and there's been several hundred of those who have been retrofitted in recent years. We have national standards for any new housing to be of a particular standard in terms of energy efficiency.
The challenge is to recognize that most of the city's housing stock is quite old, and some of that is being met by national programs to encourage private owners to take use of grants and low interest loans to meet the cost of retrofitting.
But there's also a job of work to be done with industry and with commercial firms in general to make sure that all operations and in buildings, whatever their use, are operating within sufficient energy efficiency guidelines and standards that we hope to meet. Being part of the EU 110 cities and carbon neutrality is something we're hoping will help us in that process. Both, I think in a number of ways. One is to share the learning experiences of other european cities, but secondly, I think the competition element of wanting to do as well, and if not better than other cities, is something we're hoping will spare us on as well.
[00:15:23] Peter Griffiths: Brilliant. So in this podcast so far, we've spoken about the need for transport to be more accessible. We've spoken for the need for land to be more available for public uses. We've spoken about the need for buildings to also, in a sense, be more livable and more accessible. But going back to your comment, just around flooding, none of this can work if the city is underwater. And so it would be good to get a sense of. I know that there's some big plans and interventions that are being thought up to keep Cork safe. It'd be good to maybe finish up just the conversation about how being climate friendly, but also in a sense, working with nature in a way that allows people to keep living in the best possible way. Be good to get your thoughts on that.
[00:16:10] Dan Boyle: The debate about flooding is quite controversial in Cork. While there's huge agreement about the existence of the threat, there has been an ongoing public debate about how we deal with that threat. Now we are starting a first phase of infrastructure to deal with it in the city center. It's called the Morrison's island project and it's starting within the next number of weeks.
The wider aspect of the river is something that a national agency known as the Office of Public Works have to submit a proposal on, and that needs to go through a national planning process and that will deal with the rest of the city.
I think where the controversy still exists is whether it's a sufficient whole river approach, whether it's incorporating enough elements of natural flood management, which is part of an ongoing international debate as well. For instance, those who are campaigning against what has been proposed to date have been suggesting a river barrage, and that's not part of any official plans as of now.
And there are obviously cost elements to go down that road, and there's also environmental implications if that was the chosen route as well.
But I think if the first phase works well in Morrison, Rhode island, it may concentrate minds about how we do the wider aspect.
And I think at least the ongoing controversy has helped us have the debate about why we should be looking at this in more holistic terms and wider picture terms, that floods, they are of different type and they are different sources. And as I've mentioned earlier, we have a particular problem in terms of the infrastructure for our stormwater drainage, which is where you, you see the first manifestation of many of our flooding incidents, not from the river itself, but coming up through the streets in our city centre. Because the rainfall is such an intensity that it's not expected or the drains can't cope with what's coming in a short time frame.
We will make progress.
The debate will be ongoing.
The other complicating picture, and I'm hoping it will concentrate minds, is while we're doing this, we're using data that itself is subject to constant reanalysis.
We know that climate change is coming faster than many of us expected.
We know that in terms of rainfall, its intensity, its incidence, these are problems we're going to experience more than we have in the past. So if anything, that means the urgency to deal with the problem not only has to be dealt with more quickly, but our approach to it has to be a bit broader than we've been allowing ourselves to debate up until now.
[00:19:10] Peter Griffiths: So you mentioned some of that skepticism, but also the fact that some traditional approaches like drains, just aren't doing the job anymore. So it'd be good to get your sense of. Of how you can address some of the skepticism from residents who may not see the immediate benefits of more sustainable development, but as opposed to, let's say, wanting more traditional approaches, which from your conversation don't seem to always be working the way that we had hoped they would.
[00:19:39] Dan Boyle: Well, unfortunately, although there are still opportunities, a lot of the difficulties have arisen because we've allowed development on areas that should have been part of a natural flood management approach that we've built on floodplains. And we may need to make difficult decisions in the future about reestablishing places that are built on now and having them built elsewhere and allowing them to go to a more natural use to take care of the flood risk that exists. We had a major incident in the city in 2009, which was caused by the combination of wind, rain and high tides.
And a difficult decision was made by our energy company, the electricity supply board, who run a hydroelectric dam about 20 km outside the city.
And the dam was coming close to bursting point. So they made a decision to release that water. And it was the worst incidence of flooding the city I'd ever experienced. So our most recent experience of serious flooding has been a result not only of natural consequences, the wind, the rain, the tides, but also the way that we've imposed technology and utilized it in particular ways. So it's just another ball we have to juggle with in terms of solving our ongoing problems. But I think the debate has been useful and I think it has concentrated minds and it has made people realize there is a wider picture to all this. And whatever solutions we come up with are going to be complex, they're not going to be easy, and they're going to involve an awful lot of people buying into the idea of the type of changes that are needed.
[00:21:38] Peter Griffiths: So you speak a lot about difficult decisions. You also speak a lot about how the city faces unique, but also challenges which are true for many other cities across Europe. And so it'd be good just to get your sense on any recommendations that you have for other local authorities who are embarking on a journey of making tough decisions about the climate.
[00:22:01] Dan Boyle: As a politician, I understand the restraints that exist, that decision making is often compromised by electoral cycles.
And if I was to give any advice, I would maybe use a quote that was used in a satirical british series called yes, minister and yes, prime minister about being courageous in making decisions. Of course, courageous being a synonym for being foolish if you're interested in political power and maintaining it. But the idea that we're going from one election to another is not serving us well. It's not serving our cities well, not serving our region as well, not serving our country as well. We have a responsibility to make decisions that affect future generations and take future generations into account.
And these are decisions that will have an impact in 10, 20, 30 years time, long after many of us are not going to be on this planet, but our children and grandchildren will. So I'm motivated by that. I recognize that many others in politics aren't. And the political debate isn't about, I believe, scoring points off each other, either individually or in a collective sense with different political parties. It's about recognizing, are we making decisions for now? Are we making decisions for the future? And the advice I would give to people is that unless you believe in a future and you believe for the future, you're not really serving anyone's interests properly. And there's a lot to fear in living for the no, because the no is not going to lead into the future.
[00:23:43] Peter Griffiths: I think that's a really fascinating point in the sense of. Of almost seeking a mandate for the next electorate rather than the current.
But because we also like to be democratic, as BABLE, we have a segment within our podcast called Flip the Script, where it's an opportunity for you to ask me a question and for me to try and fumble through it, which only seems fair.
[00:24:07] Tamlyn Shimizu: Flip the script.
You are the one asking the questions and I'll be the one answering them.
[00:24:16] Peter Griffiths: So over to you any question that you've got.
[00:24:20] Dan Boyle: This is a rare pleasure.
Well, I suppose there is that joke of the person who says, enough about me. What do you think about me? But the real question is that the experience you're finding, in a wider sense, about the seriousness in which cities collectively across Europe are dealing with these problems.
I'm a glass half full person. I am an optimist in general. I believe we're going in the right direction, if not fast enough, but I'd like to think that there are stronger views out there and stronger people with abilities to affect those changes elsewhere, and that's who we want to work with and who we want to learn from. I'm wondering whether you're finding that in your experience.
[00:25:14] Peter Griffiths: So I think, if I get your question right, it's about what are other ambitious european cities doing to target climate change? And I would say there may be a few things that can go into that. So the one is that we have more data than we've ever had before and we're more able to make sense of it. So you spoke about a flood event in 2009. There are many cities that are trying to make sure that they know exactly when the next flood event is going to happen and how severe it's going to be. So I'd say that's probably the first point. There's a lot more capacity to understand severe events than ever before, and to hopefully not just react, but also proactively figure out what kind of infrastructure.
I'd say that the second thing, and this maybe goes to the heart of Europe, is many of the cities in Europe are very old, and there's a desire to retain the status quo in a sense, because that brings stability and memory.
But you also mentioned building in floodplains, and maybe that wasn't so wise. And so there are some parts of Europe which are starting to thinking about managed decline and actually what goes back to nature, which is quite a complex set of decisions to make, because it's not data driven, it's cultural and political and historical.
But from what I'm seeing is that there are more and more cities that are keen to grapple with just the difficulty of these decisions, that they're nothing, not technocratic decisions alone, actually, they impact people's lives.
And then I'd say, thirdly, Europe's very keen to be a world leader when it comes to managing the climate transition in a way which is not just technically savvy, but also socially acceptable. And so what we're seeing is more and more cities that are very keen to figure out how does the social and the technology come together to create not just a sustainable future, but a future that people want.
You mentioned glass half full. I think it might be slightly fuller than half being optimistic about it, but there are going to be some very big challenges that some cities will have to face in the very near future.
So you might find that some of the political cycles might need to become almost shorter in terms of making decisions more rapidly. But in many cases there is political will for that. So let's hope we keep going in that direction. So hopefully that answers your question.
Thank you so much for it.
So now to our final question for today, and this is a question we ask every guest to you. When you think about a smart city, what do you think a smart city is?
[00:27:55] Dan Boyle: I must admit that I don't think it's one that is necessarily on top of everything technologically. I think smart city is a city that has awareness of possibilities, a critical analysis of what it has been, and has a shared collective courage as to what it can be. And if you can mix those elements, I think that determines your success as a city.
[00:28:22] Peter Griffiths: Brilliant. Thank you so much. And I would definitely agree that technology is in some ways as much people as it is ones and zeros. And to all our listeners out there, don't forget you can always create a free account on Bible dash smarteen smartcities au to find out more about smart city projects, many of which are about greening places that we live in and solutions and implementations. Thank you all so much, and thank you again to the Lord mayor of Cork for his time today.
[00:28:50] Tamlyn Shimizu: Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
