Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: The City the Baba Podcast where we bring together top actors in the smart city arena, sparking dialogues and interactions around the stakeholders and themes most prevalent for today's citizens and tomorrow's generations.
[00:00:21] Speaker C: I am your host Tamlin Shimizu and.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: I hope you will enjoy this episode and gain knowledge and connections to accelerate the change for a better urban life.
Smart in the City is brought to you by Babel Smart Cities. We enable processes from research and strategy development to co creation and implementation. To learn more about us, please visit the Babel platform at babel-smartcities eu.
[00:00:46] Speaker C: So welcome back to another episode of Smart in the City, everyone. I am recording this fresh out of my summer holidays in Europe and I hope you all now are having a really nice fall and had some nice holidays.
On this podcast we talk a lot about digital transformation, of course, especially for public local government, and I'm excited to jump further into this topic in full force with our guests today.
So without further ado, please give a warm welcome to Shirelle Fairweather. She's the digital strategy lead for the city of Manchester in the uk. Welcome, Sherelle.
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you. I've followed your work for some time and I'm really interested also in learning more about Manchester.
And with her today is none other than Minou Tegethoff, the senior expert for digital services and technologies for Dresden. Sommer welcome menu.
Yeah, it's really a pleasure to have both of you.
I like to get started with a little bit of a teaser to get us warmed up and into the flow of things.
The teaser I have for you today is if you could describe your current work with one song. Which song would it be?
Shirelle, you want to go first.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: This conversation because obviously it's a tricky question and we both, me and Minnie just started laughing as soon as we read that that was going to be the teaser question.
So I actually asked the team today what they would choose as a song just to see kind of where everyone was in terms of their views on our work.
But then as they were kind of describing their experiences via a song, I just thought of Bjork, like, oh, so quiet. Because it's, you know, there's lots exciting, very lovely sounds and lovely things that we're doing that are quite gentle. And then before you know it it's like, oh my gosh, there's so much to do, so many people you're working with. It's all great stuff. So it still sounds nice but it's just a bit chaotic and Then it kind of goes back down again. So that's my song that I kind of thought of when we had this question.
[00:03:05] Speaker C: I like how you delegated out this question too. It's good management. So, Manu, what about you?
[00:03:15] Speaker D: Yeah, so I'm going to just give you my two intuitive answers and I couldn't decide, so I got them. I got them both.
Firstly, I think this is a super tricky question, like you already addressed, because A, my music taste goes public and B, this, this project has been really. Has had lots of facets to it, really exciting. So I'm going to put. I'm going to put it out there. So the first one that intuitively came to me was actually from Queen, Don't Stop Me now, because I don't know, it has this vibe in our team when we talk, when we work. The four of us are really passionate. The two people missing that are not here, unfortunately, in the podcast, but our conversations are really constructive and we're always thinking 10 steps ahead and we want to reach the moon with Manchester, so kind of that wife. And the second one is more of visual connection. So Uptown Funko. Do you know the song? You know, the video? I mean, not so much the song, but the video, the way it's shot and I. And I go running around in Manchester whenever I'm there. So it gives me these vibes, these Uptown Funk song wives. That's. Yeah, like, I got two songs for you.
[00:04:30] Speaker C: Good choices. I like it a lot. Bringing a lot of energy. I can tell that you're very passionate and energetic about your work from your song choices.
So I really want to learn a little bit more about you both as people too.
So maybe Minou, you want to. To start?
Please tell us about your background and what led you into your role today.
[00:04:52] Speaker D: Yeah, I started as an. As an architect. So I studied my architecture in India and I was directly very fascinated with this digital piece. Of course, it's this Indian cliche. We're surrounded with it.
But I really wanted to.
I saw the potential and wanted to merge these two fields. And at that time, and we're talking, I think now, 15 years ago, IAC Barcelona was the only university offering a Master's in Smart Cities. So I jumped on this offer and I applied and thankfully they accepted. And you know how it is being in Barcelona as a student for Smart City. You're sitting in the hub of innovation and this kind of reignited a fire passion for this topic. And I haven't stopped since.
[00:05:46] Speaker C: Very interesting. I love. Also, I've known you for a little bit of time. But I love how I get to know people so much better once I start doing a podcast with them. So really interesting to know your background a bit better. Cheryl, same question to you. How did you get into all this mess and chaos?
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Sure. So my background is actually very different to where I am now, but I can kind of sort of see the golden thread as to how I kind of got from there to here. So in terms of education, I have a qualification in decorative art, which is glass, wood, plastics, metal, textile and ceramics and then specialized in ceramics. But rather than being interested in the products, I was always interested in the sort of art of making and being curious and being creative and how that can support people who, who are struggling or who want to express how they feel or kind of fight for their rights using creativity in the art. So after I qualified I started working within mental health and using creativity to support people who were associated with public services in that way.
Worked with a number of small arts organisations and then became very interested in sort of governance and systems and structures and how they enable people and communities to live in the ways they want to independently and happily.
And then I was like, I wonder what it's like in public sector because if I'm going to be full rounded, I've done non for profit, let's see what public sector is saying. And I kind of felt like working within a public sector space once you sort of embed one or two, you know, projects that can make a long term change the system allows. Whereas when you work for non for profit you feel that like direct impact because you are with those people. But actually sometimes it's harder to get that kind of long term policy change then worked in.
I've worked in the council for nine years now of which I thought would be like two, one or two. So each year I'm like another year to celebrate.
But I started off in a neighborhood role where I worked with politicians again to understand that relationship from political level and how you make change in a space.
And then worked for the majority of the time on the work and skills team which looks at supporting people to access opportunities who may not see kind of a clear pathway. Especially because in Manchester there's just tons, tons of companies that are moving here and offering opportunities that just aren't necessarily as easy for people to sort of see how they can get involved.
And that's when I started working on the digital agenda. So digital skills was my specialism on that team for six years from a digital just for life and Every day, but also a digital for technical skills and employment that might be in the tech space.
And now in the role that I'm in, I feel like the golden sort of thread of that journey is caring about opportunities, equality and inclusion for people. And for me, my interest in technology, being a non technologist, is that actually it's a really important layer that can help to shift systems and really support people who are having a pretty tough time because of the layer of technology on top of the layer of complex systems. So I really care about the kind of. So what, like why are we wanting to use technology and how do we do so in a way that is for all and not just for those who are kind of all right so far. So that's my background and sort of the journey as to the thread and where I am now.
[00:09:18] Speaker D: Can, can I just say something to this? This is why we have a great repo in the team. So I've been learning so much from, from Shirel and Megan that I'm here looking at this real social aspect and the impact that it's bringing in our project because we come from a very technical background from Risen Sama. We're an engineering company and we look at, you know, zeros and ones.
But to actually understand from them what kind of impact this is making has been really helpful. It's changed the narrative for us and that's been one of the biggest learnings in this project for me for sure.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Just to support that as well, I'd say I often get like, oh, you've not kind of embedded your qualification, but when you do a creative or an artist qualification, you are taught to have something that's messy and then to sort of play with things and think through how you can create something that is a product at the end. And I think those skills and qualities actually like work really well within the tech space, in the smart city space because there are so many different layers to consider and you kind of have to fail. You have to find new ways around doing something. And actually creativity and curiosity are proper core skills within like a smart city development, especially from a public policy. Policy perspective. So, yeah, I think it's, it's really nice that we have such a collective of skills across our kind of team of four, because it really does help with that, that social impact. Totally agreement.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: I love that. I've never had someone on the podcast that have gone, that has gone from ceramics to, to digital services. So I love, I love that line and how you're connecting it all. So really interesting.
Shirel I just want you to kind of set the scene a little bit. Also, I think most people have heard about Manchester, at least know the name, but tell us a little bit more about it and your current state in digital transformation.
[00:11:22] Speaker D: Sure.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: So a little bit about Manchester. I mean, as you said, people probably look at Manchester and think city for, you know, industrial revolution. Obviously we have really strong roots back to the history of that, but also the technology and its boost here as well in Manchester with sort of Alan Turing and some of the stuff that we have here by our, our education system. But I think for me, the size of Manchester is also really interesting to kind of share because I assume, well, conversations I have often when I go along to events, for example, or speak to people in some of the conversations like this is we're kind of just seen as, oh, you, near London. And there's always kind of that comparison. But we're a pretty big city, so our population has gone up 100k in 10 years. In terms of people, we're now at 630.
So, you know, it's a pretty, pretty big place, very dense population, speaks over 200 languages. So we're really diverse in lots of different ways. So I think for me, Manchester, from a, you know, how does it look? How does it feel? It's a really vibrant city that has a lot of opportunity here based on the work that public sector has done over time with that kind of public, private relationship. So we've got a story of coming from, you know, a pretty sort of gritty city that has a lot of stuff to move from around its industrial revolution in the past there, but actually now it's competing with really big cities and thinking of technology and the digital ecosystem in itself. It's kind of known as the second best biggest city in the UK from a tech perspective because of its ecosystem and because of the companies we have moving here outside of London, which I think is something to kind of be really, really proud of from a kind of digital strategy perspective.
We have had, again, a good relationship with the agenda from Legacy. So say about 15 years ago, we were very involved in a lot of European initiatives around smart city deployment. We had a team that was similar to what we look in a shape like now and that kind of did some really interesting projects, looked at how we could use technology to really kind of move the council, but more broadly the city forward. And then we had a bit of a gap where we had probably around 10 years where there wasn't that kind of core focus from the city council itself. To try and convene external and internal powers to focus on smart city. So we have been a team since 2020. The strategy is 2021 and it's a five year strategy. So we're in an interesting space now because we're coming towards the end of that first iteration.
And I think for us it learning from and using the levers from previous initiatives and projects that existed, but also bringing them into what do we need now. You know, we've had such growth in population.
Who, where and what are those kind of key sectors and key challenges.
So the strategy has four thematic areas. The first, which is about people in its core. So how do we support those many people that live in the city to feel like they can get the opportunities that have come to Manchester? So there's lots of skills pipeline programs that we're creating with Greater Manchester Combined Authority as one of the 10 authorities within that regional borough.
We're also looking at equality. So the tech sector itself, which is probably a message nationally, also isn't as diversely represented as much as it could or should be. So we look at how again, we can kind of work with businesses to sort of shift what culture may look like to support that kind of encouragement of people to work in those industries, but also stay in those industries.
We have a big focus on digital inclusion in that space as well.
So again, Manchester has a real great story and a great narrative, but there's also a lot of deep and rich poverty here also. So how do we support people to just use technology for their everyday, you know, ordering things online, accessing cheap surgeries, etc.
The second section is around why is in the ground? So I always describe it as sort of old school smart city. So lots of the stuff that we want to do, how do we make sure the right infrastructure and connectivity is in the right places? And also looking at how we can make sure national investment is deployed strategically and not just economically.
The third section is the sort of shiny, sexy stuff. So how do we celebrate those kind of big numbers that I talked about at the start and the comparison to all the cities and other countries, but also how do we build our reputation of being a city for and by people? So that kind of tech for good piece where we're looking at technology being used for good, for social good and not not for harm. And then last but not least, the final piece is around sustainability and resilience. So, you know, more digital and more energy. You know, where is the kind of balance there and how do we mindfully deploy, whilst also Using tech to deliver positive change for the sustainability and resilience agenda more broadly. So this is where we are now. Lots of great, exciting stuff, but there's lots kind of more to do in regards to convening against those sort of four areas.
[00:17:10] Speaker C: Really, really good background and foundation for what we're going to talk about.
Minu, you were recently, you alluded to this project that you're working on and you worked with Manchester on the digitalization maturity assessment.
Talk us through that. What were your main findings?
What is this project that you were talking about?
[00:17:35] Speaker D: To give you a complete picture, I'm actually going to go back to some of the context points that Shirelle mentioned.
So when we came in, we had already a report in hand done by the city with another set of consultants that measured their maturity as well. Now, you have to remember, based on the history that Sherelle just took us through, this was in 2021, right? I think the report was written, Cheryl. So it was set at that time with the available information and the available initiatives.
And from then until now, you see a huge progress in terms of really making the strategy tangible in some sense. So it's just not some fancy words stitched together and put put on high glossy paper and sent out as a report. But they've picked pieces out of this report and really tried to start to build a network based on this. So they are at the beginning of their journey, it looks like, in terms of implementation and concrete projects that have been implemented, yet at the same time, their infrastructure or their network that they have built up based on the goals that were set in this previous report, there has been a huge leap. So now they have the tools, they have the infrastructure, they have the network ready to deploy. And now now comes the jump. Now it's time to just go into action and the entire deployment is going to be much faster than setting this network up. So I think they've done a great job. They've looked at this report, they critically looked at this report, took insights from it and from where we have assessed it. Right now they have all the tools available and now it's about really going out there, rolling up your sleeves and deploying. So. So these were the main points. Now when you look at Smart City, everyone has a different understanding of Smart City.
This word for me is just scarred in so many ways. As well as a professional, not just with Manchester, but this is across Europe.
And that's been an interesting finding as well. Talking to the different stakeholders within the Manchester city landscape, one understands Smart City or Even digital solutions or can Connected Placemaking as a platform. The other is talking about old school smart street lighting implementation.
So the process has also been quite eye opening and we've tried to transparently give this back to the city in taking these different definitions that everybody has and really putting it on paper and connecting the dots to make everybody realize that we're talking actually about the same thing, just using different terminology.
So this has been very relevant finding that we hope with our report and the way we've put it together, we can really make an impact and make the stakeholders understand now what the collective goal is. And the third and the most important point is that there is a lot of appetite within Manchester to do something so they as individuals, as individual regions. There are already a lot of projects being deployed, maybe not necessarily under Connected Place Making or Smart City, because like I said, there's this gap in understanding what is what, but there is appetite. And they have started these initiatives on their own. And what this team has been successfully now able to do is kind of pull them back, connect them to the entire strategy as a whole and put pieces together of this puzz, which has been really interesting to find, I think through our process. So we had interviews with these different areas and we didn't have the core team as a part of it. So Cherelle and Megan weren't part of these interviews. We did this consciously to really speak to others that don't speak necessarily the digital language and to understand where they're at.
And the response has been really great. We give them their findings, we also gave them findings from other places so they could, you know, kind of benchmark themselves. And this was really helpful because now they feel like this is one institution all working towards a central goal.
So that's where we're at.
And I think it's, it's. We're so close, we're so close to getting to getting these things on, on paper, on the map for everyone to know what Manchester is really in the smart city space.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Shreya, what are the practical next steps?
[00:22:40] Speaker D: Do you see?
[00:22:41] Speaker C: Now?
Manchester has a lot of good things now in place, these kind of pillars.
What does it really take to move from maybe more fragmented practices towards really interoperable, equitable, all of these really bringing it all together. What do you think?
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Think?
Yeah, I think and Minu touched on it then. I totally agree. There's that kind of word around governance because again, the kind of phrase smart cities means different things to many people. And I think when we work with our European colleagues, it's kind of like very well understood in terms of an agreed kind of, this is what smart cities is. But I think in the UK it's slightly different because it kind of depends from a city council perspective what service is doing what in part of that space. So, for example, if you work in highways and you're focusing on transport mobility and using technology to deploy to improve transport, that's very different to looking at a digital inclusion project with a community group who need to access the library. So I think for us, getting that governance that has the right level of senior leadership to kind of say, we really ride with this, we really want to kind of push this forward and this is how we can support, but also getting those who deliver at delivery level to kind of be aware and have clear ownership of bits of activity will be really important for us as well. So now we have those suggested projects and initiatives to actually look at deploying technologies. It's then, okay, who owns this stuff? How do we put some sort of governance for accountability in place? And even, you know, where does the budget come from? Because that's also a challenge for us as a local authority is to if this is something that really is important for us to drive an agenda forward, who owns it and where do the funds come from? And if we're all clear on that, I think it'll really help to kind of get investment in the right spaces. So we'll be doing a lot of work to socialize the findings that Minou and Chris, our other colleague, have kind of helped us gather from those independent conversations.
And one thing I will say as well, and obviously there'll be a range of people listening to this podcast, but I think having the words come from an independent expert, especially a global company that's kind of very well nested in lots of different places on this agenda has been incredible because I can sit here all day and say, well, we've seen this Project Smart City Expo and it's great. But, you know, hearing that from somebody who has done a similar kind of initiative in other places has really helped get that buy in.
So I think for us moving forward, it's about governance, shaping that correctly and efficiently to kind of deliver the next step of programs and implement technology itself.
And there's a real big focus for how do we learn from that. So as a team, we've really played like long game.
You know, we could have kind of gone in and just said, right, there's a street over there that needs a street lamp. There's something over here that needs damp and flush sensors. But actually we needed to get those people who are in those services to understand, to learn, to share with us so we understand what already exists, exists, and then we can go in, in that way. So we've really kind of gone long game and now it's time, as Manu says, to sort of show action, really. So it's quite an exciting time to be able to potentially start speaking to suppliers soon and to kind of look at solutions and how we can create them. So, yeah, they'll be our next steps for sure.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: Absolutely. I want to also then touch on that because the report is highlighted some gaps right, in procurement, delivery, capacity, scaling, pilots, and you want to start talking to these company solutions, you want to get these implemented. So from the perspective of companies, we always have a lot of. A lot of our listeners are varied.
[00:26:46] Speaker D: Right.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: But of course we also have some solution providers listening from those perspectives. What kind of procurement models, partnership approaches or solution formats do you think make it easier, easiest for them to actually be impactful when they work with cities or especially with you?
[00:27:04] Speaker A: It's a tricky one because I think it's definitely something that we are learning and figuring out what frameworks and structures will work best for us as a city. I think because we've had to take our processes on a journey, we're now looking at people trust us and there's a safe space. How do we try and be a bit more innovative? I think, as a team, especially when it comes to digital connectivity, that's a priority for us because if we don't have the right foundation, it's going to be hard to deploy any of this technology on top of that. So we really would encourage. Now we have that front door suppliers and companies who are in the space of how do we have neutral shareholders, for example, how do we look at making use of EV deployment linked to connectivity and fiber, like some of our companies are doing in Manchester? So I think having a front door and we can kind of say that confidently, we're kind of open to having conversations with companies and suppliers as the digital strategy team. And now we have a clearer idea that we can share of what the challenges are, whereas before it was very strategic. We know we have fluffy, dreamy thoughts of where we'd like to be, but we can be a bit more specific now based on the work that we've done with Minu and colleagues.
So I would say we're at a journey where it's like we're the front door.
We kind of have an idea of what some of Those solutions are that we need or what the challenges are really, and can articulate that now so we can be a bit more open and transparent on how we share that. So, for example, we're going to be going along to the Expo, which I referenced before, in Barcelona, sharing this piece of work and also sharing the challenges in case there are companies there who can help us to think through some ideas.
So we'll be doing a series of kind of sharing events next year, locally, nationally, globally, et cetera, to be able to find the right people for the role. And then procurement, specifically national procurement policies have changed anyway, and so the council are going through a journey of how do councils innovate? So that we can look at public service delivery slightly differently. Because currently you have to be a certain size, a certain shape. You know, we have startup companies in Manchester themselves as well, that we'd really like to be able to work with in a much easier way. But that needs to be a how do we also have conversations with the system and the ecosystem to know what processes would work better for them as well.
So, yeah, it's a learning journey for us. We've actually recently we had some Horizon Fund, which was for the program, the community program, working with other cities such as Porto and Amsterdam, and that was to look at how we can create solutions on some of the trickier social issues that we have. So there was a project around anti poverty projects around food poverty, and then also cultural engagement. So that was working with small startup companies, the organisations themselves and residents who would be users, and then us as public sector, trying to convene those conversations.
There were a couple of apps that were created from a supplier perspective, so again, opening up that space for partnership work in a slightly different way, rather than just going through our procurement list. Some of those companies weren't based in Manchester, a couple were.
So, yeah, we're looking for different solutions. So also open to anyone that's listening to this that might have something that's really worked well in their city to kind of reach out to me for a conversation.
[00:30:46] Speaker C: It's great to hear how open you are and also that you have this base of, you know, what you're looking for and how to build that. Because I think so often what I hear from, you know, these innovation companies is they just. They try to have a lot of conversations. There's a lot of closed doors and there's just a lot of cities who aren't ready yet for those conversations. So I'm really glad that you're taking this approach. And now you're at a place also to have those conversations and deploy those solutions. So I think that's really, really great to hear. Minou, from your perspective.
You highlighted obviously in this assessment that, you know, there's a lot of progress, but there's some of the modules developing def rather than deployed and optimized.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:31] Speaker C: We're just not there quite yet.
Do you think what are the risks that you see ahead for Manchester based on your work?
Are they at risk for, you know, the typical stuck in pilot cycle? What, what are you, what, what do you see?
[00:31:47] Speaker D: I'm, I'm going to also address the previous point because I think they kind of stitch together. So taking off on what Shirelle was talking about, this digital strategy body and the way they've developed this mechanism to open doors, to get, to build this network of suppliers and partners has or is going to lead them to be sitting as an advisory role across all projects. And this is a unique situation is compared to our work with that we've seen across other cities with their governance.
Because what happens is that, and by creating so much noise around the work they've been doing, especially I think in the last 18 months, Sherrell, you've been really active as a team putting things out there that these different pockets of the city have now started, turned to this digital team for advice to try to understand how and what is available.
How can they dep. How does this fit into the larger picture? So this is going to, this was inevitable and they're going to take on a stronger role as this advisory team. And then I think it makes sense that they are, let's say the central database for this network. They are the pole keeping everything together.
And where I see a risk, or where I would have seen a risk, risk is going to be in actually maintaining this. So digital is all. It's, it's an, it's an opex. It's a living piece of work.
Deployment is the easiest part of the job. It's about governance, who's taking on responsibility. There's also a point I think Shreya already brought up and this is where I see a small risk in a small struggle. I think. I think like I said, there's appetite to do some things. They might do it, but it's about how do you maintain it, how do you keep it running, how do you drive actions from this and how do you even iterate the entire piece?
Because this digital strategy body that I was speaking about is going to be as an advisory role and it's going to help you or support you in deploying this. But in the end you also need to have strategy for yourself as to what long term strategy for yourself as to what you're going to do with this program that you're now going to deploy. Do you have not just the technical capacity but also the capacity to spend in figuring out the vision for this program, the long term vision for this program and do you have the stakeholder buy in?
Because not just for Manchester, I mean Tamlin, you know this as well as I. The this is across all European cities, the issue, things are built, things are made, but what happens after that? So this challenge also will come to Manchester, I feel, even though we have the central body.
But that being said, once they start to reap the benefits, the initial benefits of their deployment and I hope that this will motivate them to keep going on this journey. Journey.
So yeah, this, the entire operational piece is that one, that one little risk I. They give me butterflies in my stomach, but until then we're good.
[00:35:19] Speaker C: Shirelle, do you also stay up at night kept up by this risk or the other ones?
[00:35:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I was like nodding furiously thinking, yeah, Minnie's totally right. I'll say as well because obviously the size of teams vary massively, but we are a very small team as like currently four will go to six to seven and then there's a small team of four who look after digital inclusion. So, you know, the size of us and our kind of role is both public service delivery as well as what's going on in the city with other key stakeholders.
There is that risk of how is it governance and how is the energy maintained in the long run. But yeah, MINU is right. I think it feels like it's the hardest part as well is actually learning from the deployment and not just for reporting to funding owners, but actually learning from that to then say, okay, this is or isn't working. How do we then deploy it somewhere else? How do we find another solution if it's not? So that piece I think is going to be really tough to embed a good enough process or approach to be able to actually learn from whatever it is that we do to then share it with those who have the powers to help us sustain the energy. So yeah, if we could have another 25 people or something, that would be great.
No problem then.
[00:36:43] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:44] Speaker C: Always a time incapacity issue for everything. Right.
But I actually want to ask you as well, Shirelle, what do you think then, as we talk about these different risks, what do you think is the remaining Biggest challenge that you're facing as Manchester, like a lot of cities say it might be financing or maybe it's capacity or whatever it might be, and what tools do you think you're still missing to really accelerate the change that you want?
[00:37:13] Speaker A: So we have actually been thinking quite a lot about this. I'm quite like a. I'm also a coach, I'm quite self reflective anyway, and hopefully have that culture as part of the team because I do think if you can sort of learn and sit and have some time to think through what you've done and why, then it kind of helps moving forward. But we've been doing a bit of an exercise where you look at what does 2027 look like, which is the end of the strategy, what does it look like now? And therefore in the middle, how do we kind of get from there to there?
And based on the support from the work that we've been doing with Minou, I think for us, if we don't get smarter at understanding what data sets we have, what they're telling us, where they are, who looks after them, it's going to get quite messy very quickly if we start to just start to deploy different types of technologies. So I think one of the challenges for me is how do we create a. Whether it's a platform or an approach or an agreed understanding from different data set owners as to how we share information with each other. There'll be loads of stuff that already exists that we're aware of that we just haven't looked at or accessed that actually could help answer some of those questions a bit quicker than coming up with a new project. So the challenge there isn't just data itself, it's also the expertise. We sit within the Growth and Development Directorate, which is very much about growing the city, not in our corporate core, which looks at how we manage our intelligence and our research, how we deliver our ICT services.
So I think for me, we're really in need of an initial resource to do some data exploration. So. So what do we have? What new stuff do we have that we actually have some control over and therefore how do we present that back in a way that says, we've been saying this, but have you had a look at this that you've had for ages? Because actually it's telling us really clearly that there's a problem or there's something that's working really well and how do we get opportunities like this to go and talk about that solution, to share it with other cities? So I think for me, separate from Kind of capacity. There's definitely what are we doing about data when it comes to the digital strategy? What's our kind of stance and how do we get the right expertise in to help us do that?
[00:39:42] Speaker C: I hear that a lot. Yeah. The data, the data consolidation challenge and who owns it and all of these things. There's so much data now that we're controlling and have access to and it's all a bit fragmented. So minu though, you wanted to add to that?
[00:39:59] Speaker D: Yeah, I just wanted to add to Atish first point. While it's a challenge, we're also at this real golden moment. So what the next activity is going to be, I maybe Cheryl can shed some more light on it later on, but in some sense going to be look at existing data sets and what we, what we have. I always say we because I feel like I'm a part of the city. By the way.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: That'S good, that's good looking.
[00:40:29] Speaker D: Looking at what we have to try to like. Sure said, figure out what the gaps are. But the next step is once we have this clarity in what already exists, cleaning this up, structuring it. The next step, which is I think going to be the fun step is public private partnerships because it's then trying to monetize this, making business decisions, allowing for even private companies to take on ownership, to be, to support in funding, to take on some of these costs that come with this kind of data management. Because we, we see this in the private sector, right. Every time we do deploy any services and tech at some point, if we do this in real estate, at some point the tenants take over the costs because they are very much interested in this data. But first they need to see the data. And I think that's the stage that we are getting into right now.
We're going to get a business analyst, right? I mean you can talk about it a little bit more shreyad, but once we have this person sitting within the organization really from the inside, the only job this person has is to clean and verify and look at data sets.
This will in my opinion create a very nice basis to again take another leap. And like I said, for me this is like the most exciting, exciting part in Manchester's journey so far. Like I said, they built a space or this network with their partners and now they're looking at this data piece. So they just, just before jumping, free diving into, into the smart city space with really large wings to fly.
[00:42:17] Speaker C: Good points.
Now we come to the part of the interview where I'd like to give you A little bit of an open floor. We got the chance to talk about, about a fair number of things, but there's a lot more going on. So I like to give this open floor in case I miss something.
Do you have anything that you really want the listeners to know that you think would be very valuable to share either of you?
[00:42:41] Speaker A: I think from my view, like I really enjoy these conversations and again really have enjoyed working with you Minou, because you've obviously lived and breathed technology and its power in places and I do think that we need more diversity of background, expertise, skill sets coming together on the smart cities agenda. Because my experience of kind of working within a smart city space, say even just two years ago, it was very different in terms of the types of people who were working in this environment that essentially were technologists and people who are very excited purely about the technology but not necessarily looking at the social benefits that could come through on that. So I can't believe we've not mentioned it yet. But I was going to mention AI because he wasn't mentioning this at the minute.
[00:43:40] Speaker C: We haven't said that word yet.
[00:43:42] Speaker A: We haven't said it. That is, that's. Yeah, that's great.
Quite refreshing actually. Book.
[00:43:48] Speaker D: They would probably the. The only podcast she's recorded in the last two years that doesn't have these two.
[00:43:55] Speaker C: Usually within the first question.
Something with AI.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: No, I am not surprised but I think for us in Manchester and certainly for me personally, I don't think that we could have, we could deploy AI from a smart city perspective without having people who think about, about the social benefit and impact because it's either going to be incredible or it could be quite painful and push people further back, you know, away from independence and equality.
So yeah, I think because I'm in the land of thinking about people to join the team, I'll be going out for four new roles in the next two to three weeks in September, October time.
I just really want to see more people who also come from that kind of social background because. Because it is a space for people who have that experience to work in and there's such a lovely kind of complimentary relationship that comes from working with that kind of social minded person to those people who understand how to make it work.
So yeah, for me I think just shift shaking it up and getting different people in a room to have conversations about smart cities will really see its true value and potential. Sure.
[00:45:16] Speaker C: Menu. Do you have also anything to add?
[00:45:19] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean I think she, she summarized it really well.
That's like I said been the backbone or the success of our, of our partnership, this combination or this diversity that, that she spoke about.
I will go back to, to your AI point point though, just because we have to address it in this podcast.
I, I completely support this social or understanding the social impact of this. And this is very important. It's. It requires a mindset change if you want to take people with you on this, on this journey.
We are ourselves have of course, our own A.I. that's, that's been developed and we use it for currently a limited number of purposes because we're doing this ourselves like a small startup within the company.
But even that, even though it has not so many use cases yet, we've, we've seen how this has transformed one or the other behavior.
Majority has been positive, but there has been some skepticism and you have to remember with the size of our company and we are always also looking at our competitors that have deployed AI in a much larger scale. And we are in conversation. We are in constant conversation. You also get really mixed and partially also very negative feedback from people sitting in these organizations.
Maybe they were too fast on their AI journey and this is something we've started to critically reflect on. Take maybe smaller steps, but take them carefully in this space before you overrun your employees or your organization, or in Manchester's case, even their citizens, that they want to really take on their journey with them.
This is something that I really want to give back out of experience that everyone I think should responsibly look at this.
And I do have a question, actually that I got for, for our open round, if I may ask.
Unless you have them.
[00:47:39] Speaker C: Yeah, you mean for our segment? Because I can lead us into the segment.
[00:47:43] Speaker D: Oh, okay. Yes, that. Yes, yes, yes.
[00:47:47] Speaker C: Okay, perfect. Yeah. Because I would love. Yeah, save. Save your question. I.
I would love. Now we go into our segment, which the segment I chose for you today is called Flip the Script.
Flip the Script.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: You are the one asking the questions and I'll be the one answering them.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: I love to do this with two people when I'm interviewing two people because that means I get to be very lazy and basically you guys get to ask each other a question and I get to sit back and sip my coffee. So I would love to ask. Minu, you had a question that you wanted to propose to Shirelle? Yeah.
[00:48:28] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:48:29] Speaker C: Floor is yours.
[00:48:29] Speaker D: Floor is mine. All right. Yeah. I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, especially because we got to act, look at their previous report and to review it and build upon this. So we've kind of understood the journey that Manchester has been on on their digital journey, along with understanding and looking at their struggles. So, keeping this in mind, I know you have worked really hard, Shirelle and your team. Keeping all in mind, if I gave you a magic wand today with one wish for this, for Manchester, for its digital journey, so that you can get one thing done, what would. What would it be?
[00:49:13] Speaker A: Just one.
No, this is. Yeah, let's have a think.
I.
So I think that for things to really change, that doesn't happen overnight. Like we were talking about systems that have been created well before I was here, that weren't necessarily some of them there to support people in the ways that we're trying to now.
So I don't think that, you know, overnight we're going to kind of like, like wave the wand and we'll all be doing lots of digital things and it'll be really smooth and no complications. But I do really wish that the layers of governance would be a little bit more straightforward because to be honest, a lot of our time, energy and effort is spent having lots of wonderful conversations, but sometimes conversations that just feel obvious, but because there are so many competing priorities and demands internally, from a public policy perspective, it just means that you really do have to turn up your convincing, influencing and schmoozing skills to kind of get, you know, one little step forward. And that's not for all services. That's just, you know, some that are on their own journeys and that have their own priorities. But I think, think as you use your wand, minu, to kind of completely simplify the layer of governance, because as soon as we have the right people saying yes, then we can do the stuff that probably is the easiest stuff. So if you can sort out governance for us and just, yeah, get everyone to take accountability, that would be perfect.
[00:51:04] Speaker D: Done.
[00:51:05] Speaker C: Waving the wand.
[00:51:06] Speaker A: Done.
[00:51:06] Speaker C: Okay, governance.
[00:51:07] Speaker D: All right, Just calling the Prime Minister. Just give me a second.
[00:51:14] Speaker C: Cherelle, do you have a question for minu?
[00:51:18] Speaker A: I think, similar note, I'm just wondering, minu, from your expertise, especially because you have such a link across lots of different countries and places and cities, what you think that one special ingredient is to sustain energy of effort? Because I know obviously that came up early on in our conversation. What one thing have you kind of seen or felt that another place or other places have done well to sustain that, that energy?
[00:51:55] Speaker D: I think you partially had answered this question yourself. The. The word is diversity. Diversity. Pure.
To be honest, without the private sector's involvement in these kind of initiatives, digital Initiatives.
It is a challenge for cities to keep the goal going. And the fun actually starts once you get these corporates on board, because they obviously have one, the experience from a business perspective to help you really clean out all the fluff and be very direct in your business goals at least, and support you in operations in terms of efficiency.
And at the same time, you get to do the nice part, which I would say is the social piece within this construct and. And by involving diverse partners across sectors in your deployment, you make the chance of survival of every solution much higher.
And we need to reach a stage where the governance or the board for every solution. So we almost always, when we deploy a additional solution in, insist on having like a board, a board of directors that are essentially taking decisions. And this needs to be diverse. So you need to have someone, someone sitting from the city, you need to have someone sitting from the private sector, you need to have a citizen participating, you need to have a technical expert. And this kind of mixture, this kind of governance board, I think is the. The basis for. For success and for sustainable success. Success, because everyone wins in this combination.
If you take the risk or land up giving this to one stakeholder group or the other, it's possible that your larger vision gets compromised and the goals you initially started to achieve.
Yeah, die.
Die on. On their way there.
[00:54:13] Speaker A: Just to say, it's ra really quite exciting to hear that, Manu, because one of the things that we do really well as a city is private public relationships. So how we develop places is via that private investment. Because I think as a city, particularly our leader, Councillor Beth Craig, you know, we can't develop a city in the way that we have without having that relationship. So we definitely have that ethos to build on. And I think now it's how do we plant the digital seed within those existing infrastructures to then do exactly as you say? So, yeah, really, really exciting to hear. Share that from your experience.
[00:54:49] Speaker C: Great questions and great answers as well. I always get a little bit like, you guys always have better questions for each other than I could ever think of as well. So I love it.
Now we get to the final question and I love how you both already spoke a bit about how everyone's definition of smart city is different because this is a recurring question that we ask every single guest, as you can tell. Well, as you can imagine, everyone's answers are very diverse as well. And I want to hear from you. I do ask that you keep it brief because we're running out of time.
To you, what is a smart city.
Manu, you want to go first, right?
[00:55:31] Speaker D: For me, a smart city is a city really making decisions based not just on out of one data set, but multiple and including citizens in the process.
[00:55:48] Speaker C: Very good, Shirel.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: For me it's a feeling. So as a citizen or somebody who works in the city, being able to walk around, get transport in an easy way, you know, I don't think it's something that we should see, but we should feel that it's easy to live, to work, to grow a business, business in a city. And that's supported by technology's role.
[00:56:11] Speaker C: Very good.
Now that's all she wrote. So I just have to give a big, big thank you to both of you for taking the time. I learned a lot from both of you. I'm sure our listeners did too. I had a great time with you, so thank you so much for coming on.
[00:56:26] Speaker D: Thank you so much for having us. This has been absolute delight. Thank you so much Shamlin, for the great moderation as well. Way.
[00:56:35] Speaker C: Thank you.
No problem. Anytime. So we'll have to do this again and definitely looking forward to connecting with both of you in person in Barcelona too, coming up.
I also have to thank our listeners, of course, because this wouldn't happen without them. So thank you if you're listening up until this point. Also, I know with the all the distractions going on in the everyday world, this is impressive if you made it to the end also. So thank you for listening. Don't forget you can always create a free account on Baba SmartCities EU. You can find out more about projects, solutions, implementations and more. Thank you very much.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: Thank you all for listening. I'll see you at the next stop on the journey to a better urban life.
[00:57:25] Speaker C: Sam.
